A German halberd for coments

fernando · 19th January 2009, 07:14 PM

Just bought this piece; i hope i have done it right

A German halberd said to be from the XVI century; would it be plausible?
I wonder what the mark on the beak represents ... the blade smith?

. I love marks in weapons; i am dying to know what this one is about ... if ever possible.
Shaft looking the original one; of initial square section, becoming octogonal for its most part. It is covered in more than one half with textile material that used to be pinkish or old rose (velvet?), with fringes in both ends, looking different from each other; the bottom one woven with golden filaments.
Length of (diamond section) spike: 65 cms.;102 cms. between the tip and the end of the side straps.
Perforated blade 16 cms wide.
Total length 2,73 Mts.
Coments will be so much welcome.
Fernando

.

Matchlock · 20th January 2009, 06:51 PM

Hi Fernando,

Congratulations - what a fine halberd retaining its original haft plus - astounding enough - its original textile haft decoration and raw silk tassels!

It is this way of textile haft decoration - btw., you are absolutely right: it is pinkish/rosy read velvet, most of its surface of course rubbed now; its color may have been sort of purple originally - that reflects the North Italian taste.

The blade, beak and spike are not characteristic Italian though, they look Styrian to me. On Italian halberds they usually tend to look comparatively delicate and kind of playful rather than apt for fighting as in your sample. Also the slaggy iron looks all Styrian to me.

Oh yeah, the mark. We all love marks. All I can say is that it is no doubt a workshop/maker's mark, though. It does not seem to be recorded but telling from its general shape and pattern, its style is still influenced by the Late Gothic tradition, a fact also drawing my thoughts to the traditionally minded Styria.

You most probably acquired a Styrian halberd iron that was hafted and decorated in the Italian manner. The overall length of 2.73 meters is absolutely characteristic of such a pieces of that time period.

I attach images of other typical contemporary Styrian halberds thousands of which are preserved at the Graz Armoury, and of the characteristic textile decoration on North Italian pieces.

All in all a very attractive piece. Would you perhaps consider applying some oilve oil to the iron? It looks so barren dry to me ... Olive oil was used on iron parts in European armories thru the centuries; after about three to four weeks, when it has dried it turns into a very stable yellowish patina supplying a perfect surface protection. I have been employing olive oil on iron parts for thirty years.

The picture of the Italian spontoons also shows the textile haft coverings and may be a reference for your partizan/spontoon.

Again, very well done, Fernando! Enjoy your new acquisitions!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 20th January 2009, 07:20 PM

Interesting enough, the basal reinforcement is off line/out of direction with the spike - a feature normally not found with German and Swiss halberds after the 1520's.

Following actually the archaic asymmetric Late Gothic pattern, it is quite common with Styrian and North Italian halberds of the second half to late 16th century though.

This being in line with the traditional Late Gothic form of the mark adds a further back up to my opinion that you have a Styrian (Austrian) halberd.

m

katana · 20th January 2009, 08:33 PM

Hi Fernando,
congrats

a very nice addition to your collection.

Great info Matchlock, thanks.....although this picture looks more like an 'obstacle' Indiana Jones would have to run through

Kind Regards David

fernando · 20th January 2009, 10:48 PM

Hi Michael,
Thank you very much indeed, for your compliments and fantastic info

.
I bow before your knowledge; you sure have an imense lot of 'luggage' in this area.
Let me go and digest all the coments presented, though for a first reaction i am very happy with all you said about this piece.
Thanks and thanks again.
Fernando

fernando · 20th January 2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... congrats

a very nice addition to your collection.
Great info Matchlock, thanks.....although this picture looks more like an 'obstacle' Indiana Jones would have to run through

Thanks for the apreciation, Katana Jones ... i mean, David

Matchlock · 21st January 2009, 03:09 PM

Hi, David alias Katana Jones,

The treasure Indiana Jones is headed for would have to be the far away suit of 16th c. half armor then seen in the back against the light ...

Michael

katana · 21st January 2009, 07:21 PM

.......Katana Jones........ Love it

Regards
K.J ..I mean...David

fernando · 21st January 2009, 11:52 PM

Hi Michael,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... Would you perhaps consider applying some oilve oil to the iron? It looks so barren dry to me ... Olive oil was used on iron parts in European armories thru the centuries; after about three to four weeks, when it has dried it turns into a very stable yellowish patina supplying a perfect surface protection. I have been employing olive oil on iron parts for thirty years.

...

Done ... in both Halberd and Partisan.
Olive oil would never occur to me ... although it abunds in Portuguese houses. I used to oil blades with sewing machine oil; would that be wrong?
Fernando

Matchlock · 22nd January 2009, 01:41 PM

Hi, Fernando,

No oil is wrong. Olive oil which is no doubt abundant in Portugal is just the historic treatment. It dries within a few weeks and will stay there.

m

fernando · 22nd January 2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... No oil is wrong. Olive oil which is no doubt abundant in Portugal is just the historic treatment. It dries within a few weeks and will stay there ...

Danksche

.

Anandalal N. · 22nd January 2009, 01:52 PM

Hi Michael,

In the Partisan type arms you posted the one on the far right has a cross bar below the blade. One opinion was that this was for the purpose of winding the matchcord for the firing of cannon. After seeing your images I can see that this is not possible with silk tassels so close to it. Any idea of the purpose?

By the way Fernando you are on a roll. I love the stuff you have been posting.

Matchlock · 22nd January 2009, 02:30 PM

Hi Anandalal,

I should refer to that transverse bar just as a sort of stylized quillons which, in earlier and fighting or hunting pole arms, were meant to ward off an enemy's or animal's body and stop it from sliding sort of on to the haft.

Had they been matchholders they would have been shaped somewhat like the serpentines on muskets, with a wing nut for tightening the two halves. This would, as you remarked, not be possible that close to the tassels though.

Michael

Anandalal N. · 22nd January 2009, 03:23 PM

Hi Michael,

The reason I posed the question is that a significant number of early Cingalese patisthana copy the partisan right down to the transverse bar. However, they do not have fabric decoration. Yes, it would be logical to expect the serpentine with a wing nut. But in early Cingalese matchlocks the serpentine is present with no wing nut. I would assume the serpentine and wing nut would be needed where one required precision such as in a matchlock where the range and the direction of travel of the serpentine was pre-determined and the match had to be brought precisely to the pan. In the event of a detached match as in artillery, this would not be required.

In the event of an enemy trying to run along the blade with the blade thorugh him I would assume the wings supporting the balde should stop them.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Atlantia · 22nd January 2009, 03:45 PM

Wow Fernando!

Another amazing piece! How do you do it?
I think perhaps YOU are 'Fernando Jones' and have discovered a long lost Armoury somewhere?

LOL, if you have I wouldn't mind helping explore it!
Well, as long as any traps defending it don't look like the picture Matchlock posted!!

Matchlock · 22nd January 2009, 05:42 PM

Hi Anandalal,

I completely agree with your thoughts. All oriental matchlocks (Turkish, Arabian, Indian, Sri Lankan, Cingalese and Chinese - hope I did not forget any important country) have in common that they feature no wing nut on the serpentine.

When the head of the serpentine was of small tubular shape or the two halves of the serpentine (actually the serpentine is not "split" as it would not have a spring loaded function then) were thick enough to act as a tightening spring, German matchlocks did not need a wing nut either.

In Europe, transverse reinforced stopping bars seem to have originated from 8th to 9th centuries lugged spears.

Transverse bars are mostly found on 15th-19th century boar spears where, interesting enough, they often consist of a piece of staghorn and are leather bound to the haft right below the iron socket of the blade to stop dead an onrunnig animal.

When it comes to partizans/spontoons, transverse bars are often kept as the stylized remains of a former functional element.

Michael

Matchlock · 22nd January 2009, 05:55 PM

Two more boar spears.

fernando · 22nd January 2009, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Wow Fernando! Another amazing piece! How do you do it?

What an adventure, Gene; i had to invest a significant part of my (yet to come) pension fund

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... I think perhaps YOU are 'Fernando Jones' and have discovered a long lost Armoury somewhere? ...

Tell me something new; Jones is my middle name

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Well, as long as any traps defending it don't look like the picture Matchlock posted!!

katana · 22nd January 2009, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Tell me something new; Jones is my middle name

Fernando, does that make us family......

Regards Katana Jones

PS....if we are .....would you mind giving a 'relative' some of your weapons ....I really like the hand held cannon

....worth a try I suppose

fernando · 23rd January 2009, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Fernando, does that make us family......

Regards Katana Jones

PS....if we are .....would you mind giving a 'relative' some of your weapons ....I really like the hand held cannon

....worth a try I suppose

Not a bad piece of humour ... for a Brit, i mean

katana · 23rd January 2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Not a bad piece of humour ... for a Brit, i mean

I had heard that the Portugese 'side of the family' had a great sense of humour

....and were very generous ...especially to their Brit cousins ....now, about that cannon...

Atlantia · 23rd January 2009, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I had heard that the Portugese 'side of the family' had a great sense of humour

....and were very generous ...especially to their Brit cousins ....now, about that cannon...

You're too kind mate! Only us brits really have a sense of humour! We invented it in 1742 and exported it to the rest of the world.

Its used in Portugal under licence!

Anandalal N. · 23rd January 2009, 06:27 PM

Hi Michael,

Thank you for the detailed response and the images. Staghorn huh? Reminds me, the early ropes used for noosing wild animals was made of animal hide and invariably had a hook made of sambhur horn at one end.

Matchlock · 23rd January 2009, 09:53 PM

Hi Anandalal,

Sambhur horn or staghorn - either way, each in its assigned area and period of time ...

m

fernando · 23rd January 2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I had heard that the Portugese 'side of the family' had a great sense of humour

....and were very generous ...especially to their Brit cousins ....now, about that cannon...

Ah, Ah ... i reckon that the Brit side sense is rather a more acute one

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

You're too kind mate! Only us brits really have a sense of humour! We invented it in 1742 and exported it to the rest of the world.
Its used in Portugal under licence!

Well, it's not in vain that we're old chums

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance

Fernando

Atlantia · 24th January 2009, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah, Ah ... i reckon that the Brit side sense is rather a more acute one

Well, it's not in vain that we're old chums

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance

Fernando

In school we were taught that our oldest friend and longest ally was Portugal!

LOL, The British sense of humor can be quite 'innapropriate' at times!

Norman McCormick · 24th January 2009, 04:59 PM

Fernando, the next thing your going to tell us is that you pay for these wonderful items in Gold Escudos, Gold Ducats or even Lois d'or.

My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 24th January 2009, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Fernando, the next thing your going to tell us is that you pay for these wonderful items in Gold Escudos, Gold Ducats or even Lois d'or.

My Regards,
Norman.

No, i pay in Euros; wish it were the same figures in Dollars ... or in Pounds

19th January 2009, 07:14 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A German halberd for coments Just bought this piece; i hope i have done it right A German halberd said to be from the XVI century; would it be plausible? I wonder what the mark on the beak represents ... the blade smith? . I love marks in weapons; i am dying to know what this one is about ... if ever possible. Shaft looking the original one; of initial square section, becoming octogonal for its most part. It is covered in more than one half with textile material that used to be pinkish or old rose (velvet?), with fringes in both ends, looking different from each other; the bottom one woven with golden filaments. Length of (diamond section) spike: 65 cms.;102 cms. between the tip and the end of the side straps. Perforated blade 16 cms wide. Total length 2,73 Mts. Coments will be so much welcome. Fernando . Attached Images

20th January 2009, 06:51 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A fine Styrian/Austrian halberd hafted in the North Italian taste, ca. 1580 Hi Fernando, Congratulations - what a fine halberd retaining its original haft plus - astounding enough - its original textile haft decoration and raw silk tassels! It is this way of textile haft decoration - btw., you are absolutely right: it is pinkish/rosy read velvet, most of its surface of course rubbed now; its color may have been sort of purple originally - that reflects the North Italian taste. The blade, beak and spike are not characteristic Italian though, they look Styrian to me. On Italian halberds they usually tend to look comparatively delicate and kind of playful rather than apt for fighting as in your sample. Also the slaggy iron looks all Styrian to me. Oh yeah, the mark. We all love marks. All I can say is that it is no doubt a workshop/maker's mark, though. It does not seem to be recorded but telling from its general shape and pattern, its style is still influenced by the Late Gothic tradition, a fact also drawing my thoughts to the traditionally minded Styria. You most probably acquired a Styrian halberd iron that was hafted and decorated in the Italian manner. The overall length of 2.73 meters is absolutely characteristic of such a pieces of that time period. I attach images of other typical contemporary Styrian halberds thousands of which are preserved at the Graz Armoury, and of the characteristic textile decoration on North Italian pieces. All in all a very attractive piece. Would you perhaps consider applying some oilve oil to the iron? It looks so barren dry to me ... Olive oil was used on iron parts in European armories thru the centuries; after about three to four weeks, when it has dried it turns into a very stable yellowish patina supplying a perfect surface protection. I have been employing olive oil on iron parts for thirty years. The picture of the Italian spontoons also shows the textile haft coverings and may be a reference for your partizan/spontoon. Again, very well done, Fernando! Enjoy your new acquisitions! Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 20th January 2009 at 08:46 PM.

20th January 2009, 08:33 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, congrats a very nice addition to your collection. Great info Matchlock, thanks.....although this picture looks more like an 'obstacle' Indiana Jones would have to run through Kind Regards David Attached Images

22nd January 2009, 05:42 PM	#16
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Lugs and transverse stopping bars on pole arms Hi Anandalal, I completely agree with your thoughts. All oriental matchlocks (Turkish, Arabian, Indian, Sri Lankan, Cingalese and Chinese - hope I did not forget any important country) have in common that they feature no wing nut on the serpentine. When the head of the serpentine was of small tubular shape or the two halves of the serpentine (actually the serpentine is not "split" as it would not have a spring loaded function then) were thick enough to act as a tightening spring, German matchlocks did not need a wing nut either. In Europe, transverse reinforced stopping bars seem to have originated from 8th to 9th centuries lugged spears. Transverse bars are mostly found on 15th-19th century boar spears where, interesting enough, they often consist of a piece of staghorn and are leather bound to the haft right below the iron socket of the blade to stop dead an onrunnig animal. When it comes to partizans/spontoons, transverse bars are often kept as the stylized remains of a former functional element. Michael Attached Images

22nd January 2009, 05:55 PM	#17
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two more boar spears. Attached Images

20th January 2009, 07:20 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Interesting enough, the basal reinforcement is off line/out of direction with the spike - a feature normally not found with German and Swiss halberds after the 1520's. Following actually the archaic asymmetric Late Gothic pattern, it is quite common with Styrian and North Italian halberds of the second half to late 16th century though. This being in line with the traditional Late Gothic form of the mark adds a further back up to my opinion that you have a Styrian (Austrian) halberd. m

20th January 2009, 10:48 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Michael, Thank you very much indeed, for your compliments and fantastic info . I bow before your knowledge; you sure have an imense lot of 'luggage' in this area. Let me go and digest all the coments presented, though for a first reaction i am very happy with all you said about this piece. Thanks and thanks again. Fernando

21st January 2009, 03:09 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi, David alias Katana Jones, The treasure Indiana Jones is headed for would have to be the far away suit of 16th c. half armor then seen in the back against the light ... Michael

21st January 2009, 07:21 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	.......Katana Jones........ Love it Regards K.J ..I mean...David

22nd January 2009, 01:41 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi, Fernando, No oil is wrong. Olive oil which is no doubt abundant in Portugal is just the historic treatment. It dries within a few weeks and will stay there. m

22nd January 2009, 01:52 PM	#12
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Hi Michael, In the Partisan type arms you posted the one on the far right has a cross bar below the blade. One opinion was that this was for the purpose of winding the matchcord for the firing of cannon. After seeing your images I can see that this is not possible with silk tassels so close to it. Any idea of the purpose? By the way Fernando you are on a roll. I love the stuff you have been posting.

22nd January 2009, 02:30 PM	#13
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Anandalal, I should refer to that transverse bar just as a sort of stylized quillons which, in earlier and fighting or hunting pole arms, were meant to ward off an enemy's or animal's body and stop it from sliding sort of on to the haft. Had they been matchholders they would have been shaped somewhat like the serpentines on muskets, with a wing nut for tightening the two halves. This would, as you remarked, not be possible that close to the tassels though. Michael

22nd January 2009, 03:23 PM	#14
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Hi Michael, The reason I posed the question is that a significant number of early Cingalese patisthana copy the partisan right down to the transverse bar. However, they do not have fabric decoration. Yes, it would be logical to expect the serpentine with a wing nut. But in early Cingalese matchlocks the serpentine is present with no wing nut. I would assume the serpentine and wing nut would be needed where one required precision such as in a matchlock where the range and the direction of travel of the serpentine was pre-determined and the match had to be brought precisely to the pan. In the event of a detached match as in artillery, this would not be required. In the event of an enemy trying to run along the blade with the blade thorugh him I would assume the wings supporting the balde should stop them. Thanks again for your thoughts.

22nd January 2009, 03:45 PM	#15
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Wow Fernando! Another amazing piece! How do you do it? I think perhaps YOU are 'Fernando Jones' and have discovered a long lost Armoury somewhere? LOL, if you have I wouldn't mind helping explore it! Well, as long as any traps defending it don't look like the picture Matchlock posted!!

23rd January 2009, 06:27 PM	#23
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Hi Michael, Thank you for the detailed response and the images. Staghorn huh? Reminds me, the early ropes used for noosing wild animals was made of animal hide and invariably had a hook made of sambhur horn at one end.

23rd January 2009, 09:53 PM	#24
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Anandalal, Sambhur horn or staghorn - either way, each in its assigned area and period of time ... m

24th January 2009, 04:59 PM	#27
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Fernando, the next thing your going to tell us is that you pay for these wonderful items in Gold Escudos, Gold Ducats or even Lois d'or. My Regards, Norman.