Unusual arrows for I.D.

colin henshaw · 22nd February 2009, 01:39 PM

Hi

I have had these strange arrows (or are they crossbow bolts ?), which puzzle me, for a bit. As European Arms and Armour are not my main area of interest, perhaps someone could identify them for me. Lengths are about 38 inches and diameter of the wood shafts 0.5 of an inch. Flights are of leather, fringed at the edges, and the iron or steel points are pinned to the wood.

Thanks in advance

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2009, 05:24 PM

Well...they're not Apache.

Just kidding! Couldn't resist the old western movies where the rugged cowboy rides up to the arrow bristled cover wagons and felled settlers and picks up an arrow and sternly proclaims with conviction....yup...Comanches ...as if the arrow has a label on it.
Always thought that was so amazing, as this seemed standard in these movies, with of course the tribal names varying as Hollywood 'research' strained the bounds of historic reality.

While I know little on these weapons, my guess would be that these are crossbow bolts, and naturally more will be discovered once researched.
What has your research revealed Colin? It seems leather would be an unusually heavy material for the 'flights' (?).

Hope somebody comes in on this.

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 24th February 2009, 06:14 PM

Hi Jim,

I beg to differ but I do not think that Colin's arrows are crossbow bolts. Some months ago, in a post on a singular collection of crossbows and accouterments, I pictured some characteristic crossbow bolts (quarrels):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7457

As they had to fit tight in the narrow cutout of the crossbow nut most of them had ovally flattened or even completely fattened rear ends. Also the usual length of a quarrel is some 39-42 cm and they are equipped with rather short iron bolts and either wooden or leather fletches.

All the European late medieval quarrels that I have seen had oak hafts, the fletches were mostly of beechwood or withe. In the 18th and 19th centuries, crossbow bolts became even shorter (ca. 25-30 cm) and their fletches were made of birds feathers while their irons were very short (ca. 3-4 cm), round and had an acutely pointed tip.

I think that Colin's items are definitely arrows for a bow but cannot make a quick shot at their national origin nor can I offer an explanation why their rear ends are not cut in.

Michael

Henk · 24th February 2009, 09:14 PM

I cann't recall where I read it, but some time ago I read a very interesting article about crossbowarrows and the use of leather fletches. The use of leather had a particular reason above the use of feather fletches. The production of identical leather fletches resulted in arrows with the same flight qualities.

colin henshaw · 24th February 2009, 09:59 PM

Many thanks, Jim, Michael & Henk for your observations.

I should have mentioned in my first post that the arrow with the needle point has a flat butt end, whilst the other has a shallow concave nock. They are a mystery to me and came with a bunch of African spears and stuff.

They seem to possess attributes of both longbow arrows and crossbow bolts. I had always thought of arrows for bows having three flights and in addition these shafts seem very thick for bow arrows. But the length seems too great for a crossbow and the points are quite delicate, unlike crossbow bolts. Also, why have the leather flights/fletchings feathered at the edges like that ? A point to note is that they are well made. They remind me slightly of pictures of the bolts used by Roman ballistae, which were quite long, but of a heavier construction.

My best guess is that they are for some type of specialised (crossbow ?) target competion shooting. Maybe the "feathered" flights are so the arrows can pass through some sort of narrow target opening, the sharp needle-like points perhaps for target balloons ? I have heard of "Popinjay" shooting, but thought they used arrows with blunt ends.

This is pure speculation on my part and I welcome more opinions...

Norman McCormick · 24th February 2009, 10:51 PM

Hi,
Not arrows, short spears/throwing darts may or may not have been used with throwing loop similar function to woomera, just a wild guess.
Regards,
Norman.

katana · 24th February 2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Not arrows, short spears/throwing darts may or may not have been used with throwing loop similar function to woomera, just a wild guess.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman .....you read my mind

As kids we used to make 'dutch' arrows ....a length of bamboo, some string and two playing cards for the flights. With a bit of practice you could get quite accurate.

Regards David

katana · 24th February 2009, 11:49 PM

I am becoming more convinced that these, indeed, may be crossbow 'bolts'.
The European crossbows tend to have smaller 'prods' (bow part) than Ethnic made ones. This is due to the materials that the prod is made. African crossbows I have seen have prods almost the same size as a normal bow...which would need the 'bolt' to be longer than the average European crossbow.
Perhaps the leather flights are better suited to a crossbow....more wear resistant and less affected by any moisture on the stock of the crossbow(feathers would clump up)

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2009, 05:15 AM

Well this interesting topic has got my curiosity going, and realizing how little I knew of crossbows and the bolts (arrows) , so decided to do at least some research on them.
I agree with Michael, my guess of crossbow bolts would be misplaced in the standard European forms, and the other suggestions seem plausible, especially if possibly African weapons might have used something like these, as David has suggested.

Concerning the leather fletches, I found the following:
"...bolts differed from arrows in that they were fletched with leather, or in rare cases copper strips instead of feathers. Since these materials lacked the natural curvature of feathers, they were usually attached in a slight spiral around the bolt shaft to provide the spin necessary for accuracy and improved flight".
"Daily Life in the Middle Ages"
Paul B. Newman, 2001 p.232-33

It notes further more rigid heads, thicker shorter shafts and highly durable fletching to withstand tremendous force of launch and impact.

These seem, as noted, more modern, light, and the leather fletches unusual. From what I have understood, the fletches were typically three.

All best regards,
Jim

fearn · 25th February 2009, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Norman .....you read my mind

As kids we used to make 'dutch' arrows ....a length of bamboo, some string and two playing cards for the flights. With a bit of practice you could get quite accurate.

Regards David

Hi David,

I've seen plans for "Yorkshire" arrows like you describe, and it's good to hear that someone got to make them.

Darn it, Jim, you made all the points I was going to make!

Wish I'd seen this earlier!

Best,

F

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi David,

I've seen plans for "Yorkshire" arrows like you describe, and it's good to hear that someone got to make them.

Darn it, Jim, you made all the points I was going to make!

Wish I'd seen this earlier!

Best,

F

Sorry Fearn

but as always, when I realized I knew zippety do dah about crossbows, let alone the arrows I hit the references, and Henk's note on the leather as well as Michaels got my curiosity into fever pitch! You already knew this stuff, and your notes would have been more thorough, so didn't mean to be a thunder thief

!!

The last time I got this into arrows, it was as I mentioned earlier...trying to figure out how the heck the grizzled old cowpoke in those westerns could ride up to a frontier battle scene, pick up an arrow and proclaim...yup, its the Kiowa..or Apaches....or Kickapoos!! or whatever.
But thats a whole nuther story,

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 25th February 2009, 07:25 PM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]

Concerning the leather fletches, I found the following:
"...bolts differed from arrows in that they were fletched with leather, or in rare cases copper strips instead of feathers. Since these materials lacked the natural curvature of feathers, they were usually attached in a slight spiral around the bolt shaft to provide the spin necessary for accuracy and improved flight".
"Daily Life in the Middle Ages"
Paul B. Newman, 2001 p.232-33

It notes further more rigid heads, thicker shorter shafts and highly durable fletching to withstand tremendous force of launch and impact.

Hi Jim,

Highly interesting quotation, thank you so much, and also very lively discussion going on here - just great, folks!

On almost all Late Gothic crossbow quarrels that I have inspected (and they numbered in hundreds) the mostly wooden fletches/flights were inset with a slight torsion/curve to achieve a more accurate ballistic spin as they went.

The famous Nuremberg Löffelholz Scrapbook started by Martin Loffelhölz in 1505 illustrates two mechanical devices to cut curved slits in the hafts of crossbow quarrels.

Here they are.

Michael

22nd February 2009, 01:39 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Unusual arrows for I.D. Hi I have had these strange arrows (or are they crossbow bolts ?), which puzzle me, for a bit. As European Arms and Armour are not my main area of interest, perhaps someone could identify them for me. Lengths are about 38 inches and diameter of the wood shafts 0.5 of an inch. Flights are of leather, fringed at the edges, and the iron or steel points are pinned to the wood. Thanks in advance Attached Images

24th February 2009, 06:14 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jim, I beg to differ but I do not think that Colin's arrows are crossbow bolts. Some months ago, in a post on a singular collection of crossbows and accouterments, I pictured some characteristic crossbow bolts (quarrels): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7457 As they had to fit tight in the narrow cutout of the crossbow nut most of them had ovally flattened or even completely fattened rear ends. Also the usual length of a quarrel is some 39-42 cm and they are equipped with rather short iron bolts and either wooden or leather fletches. All the European late medieval quarrels that I have seen had oak hafts, the fletches were mostly of beechwood or withe. In the 18th and 19th centuries, crossbow bolts became even shorter (ca. 25-30 cm) and their fletches were made of birds feathers while their irons were very short (ca. 3-4 cm), round and had an acutely pointed tip. I think that Colin's items are definitely arrows for a bow but cannot make a quick shot at their national origin nor can I offer an explanation why their rear ends are not cut in. Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 24th February 2009 at 08:50 PM.

24th February 2009, 11:49 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I am becoming more convinced that these, indeed, may be crossbow 'bolts'. The European crossbows tend to have smaller 'prods' (bow part) than Ethnic made ones. This is due to the materials that the prod is made. African crossbows I have seen have prods almost the same size as a normal bow...which would need the 'bolt' to be longer than the average European crossbow. Perhaps the leather flights are better suited to a crossbow....more wear resistant and less affected by any moisture on the stock of the crossbow(feathers would clump up) Regards David Attached Images

25th February 2009, 07:25 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	[QUOTE=Jim McDougall] Concerning the leather fletches, I found the following: "...bolts differed from arrows in that they were fletched with leather, or in rare cases copper strips instead of feathers. Since these materials lacked the natural curvature of feathers, they were usually attached in a slight spiral around the bolt shaft to provide the spin necessary for accuracy and improved flight". "Daily Life in the Middle Ages" Paul B. Newman, 2001 p.232-33 It notes further more rigid heads, thicker shorter shafts and highly durable fletching to withstand tremendous force of launch and impact. Hi Jim, Highly interesting quotation, thank you so much, and also very lively discussion going on here - just great, folks! On almost all Late Gothic crossbow quarrels that I have inspected (and they numbered in hundreds) the mostly wooden fletches/flights were inset with a slight torsion/curve to achieve a more accurate ballistic spin as they went. The famous Nuremberg Löffelholz Scrapbook started by Martin Loffelhölz in 1505 illustrates two mechanical devices to cut curved slits in the hafts of crossbow quarrels. Here they are. Michael Attached Images

24th February 2009, 05:24 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	Well...they're not Apache. Just kidding! Couldn't resist the old western movies where the rugged cowboy rides up to the arrow bristled cover wagons and felled settlers and picks up an arrow and sternly proclaims with conviction....yup...Comanches ...as if the arrow has a label on it. Always thought that was so amazing, as this seemed standard in these movies, with of course the tribal names varying as Hollywood 'research' strained the bounds of historic reality. While I know little on these weapons, my guess would be that these are crossbow bolts, and naturally more will be discovered once researched. What has your research revealed Colin? It seems leather would be an unusually heavy material for the 'flights' (?). Hope somebody comes in on this. All the best, Jim

24th February 2009, 09:14 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I cann't recall where I read it, but some time ago I read a very interesting article about crossbowarrows and the use of leather fletches. The use of leather had a particular reason above the use of feather fletches. The production of identical leather fletches resulted in arrows with the same flight qualities.

24th February 2009, 09:59 PM	#5
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Many thanks, Jim, Michael & Henk for your observations. I should have mentioned in my first post that the arrow with the needle point has a flat butt end, whilst the other has a shallow concave nock. They are a mystery to me and came with a bunch of African spears and stuff. They seem to possess attributes of both longbow arrows and crossbow bolts. I had always thought of arrows for bows having three flights and in addition these shafts seem very thick for bow arrows. But the length seems too great for a crossbow and the points are quite delicate, unlike crossbow bolts. Also, why have the leather flights/fletchings feathered at the edges like that ? A point to note is that they are well made. They remind me slightly of pictures of the bolts used by Roman ballistae, which were quite long, but of a heavier construction. My best guess is that they are for some type of specialised (crossbow ?) target competion shooting. Maybe the "feathered" flights are so the arrows can pass through some sort of narrow target opening, the sharp needle-like points perhaps for target balloons ? I have heard of "Popinjay" shooting, but thought they used arrows with blunt ends. This is pure speculation on my part and I welcome more opinions...

24th February 2009, 10:51 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Not arrows, short spears/throwing darts may or may not have been used with throwing loop similar function to woomera, just a wild guess. Regards, Norman.

25th February 2009, 05:15 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	Well this interesting topic has got my curiosity going, and realizing how little I knew of crossbows and the bolts (arrows) , so decided to do at least some research on them. I agree with Michael, my guess of crossbow bolts would be misplaced in the standard European forms, and the other suggestions seem plausible, especially if possibly African weapons might have used something like these, as David has suggested. Concerning the leather fletches, I found the following: "...bolts differed from arrows in that they were fletched with leather, or in rare cases copper strips instead of feathers. Since these materials lacked the natural curvature of feathers, they were usually attached in a slight spiral around the bolt shaft to provide the spin necessary for accuracy and improved flight". "Daily Life in the Middle Ages" Paul B. Newman, 2001 p.232-33 It notes further more rigid heads, thicker shorter shafts and highly durable fletching to withstand tremendous force of launch and impact. These seem, as noted, more modern, light, and the leather fletches unusual. From what I have understood, the fletches were typically three. All best regards, Jim