real or for travelers?

Montino Bourbon · 19th December 2010, 08:34 PM

I found this at a flea market near me. I'd like to know what everybody thinks. The blade has a really nice distal Taper. I would like to clean it up enough that I can see if it has an inserted edge, so I'm probably going to use very fine crocus cloth to polish it up. The handle is totally loose, and I'm not sure what to glue it back in with. The scabbard is marked “Kamlon Campaigned".
Any ideas?

BBJW · 19th December 2010, 08:54 PM

Looks like it is a tourist piece to me. If it is you can just crazy/gorilla glue it.

Cheers
bbjw

Spunjer · 19th December 2010, 09:07 PM

Real. Kamlon was Jikiri's version in the mid 1900's. A distant relative of mine fought in that campaign...

Robert · 19th December 2010, 09:08 PM

Hello Montino Bourbon, If you could, please post a close-ups of the hilt and blade. Could you also tell me how thick the blade is at the hilt? There is the possibility that it could be a good blade with a poor quality replacement hilt.

Robert

Montino Bourbon · 19th December 2010, 09:20 PM

The Blade is one quarter of an inch thick at the hilt. Is it worth cleaning up? Would I use fine crocus cloth or some other thing to polish up the blade?

Robert · 19th December 2010, 09:26 PM

I agree with Spunjer. I would go ahead and clean it up and give it an etch just to see what happens.

Robert

Montino Bourbon · 19th December 2010, 09:32 PM

So nice to know that this has a chance of being real, especially since I picked it up at a flea market nearby from some gentlemen who didn't have the faintest idea what it was, and wanted to sell me some brass daggers from Spain that are real tourist pieces at about twice as much as what this cost me. What would you clean it up with? Or can you please direct me to a thread that would tell me how I would go about the process?

Robert · 19th December 2010, 09:52 PM

This is from a very helpful post made by one of our forum members Steve Ferguson.

Here is the procedure that I use.
Steve

Please understand that there are as many methods to etch blades as there are people that do it. Do a search on etching and read what others have to say.

Polish the blade by sanding with some very fine wet-or-dry sandpaper, starting with at least 400grit, then with 600, then as high as you want to go, up to 2000. Use Windex, or any brand window cleaner with ammonia to lubricate the sandpaper, and keep it from loading up. Try not to cut your fingers off.

With each finer grit of sandpaper try to get any scratches out that were left by the previous sanding.

1. Use acetone or denatured alcohol to degrease the blade. Both are flammable, so use good ventilation and follow the safety instructions on the can.
2. Saturate a rag or paper towel with warm vinegar or pineapple juice and rub it onto the blade. Put it on with a fully saturated rag, and wipe it on evenly. Do one side then the other, doing your best to cover the full side of the blade in one pass. Don’t let the solution run down into the grip. I use a plastic trough that is used to wet wallpaper that I bought at the local home improvements store to catch the drips.
3. When satisfied with the pattern, rinse with cold water.
4. Neutralize the acid by rubbing the blade with a thick mixture of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and water, or with ammonia, or window cleaner containing ammonia.
5. Rinse the blade in cold water.
6. Dry the blade thoroughly, and oil it well with mineral oil, or whatever you currently use to prevent rust.

An alternative is to use ferric chloride. It works quicker and sometimes brings the pattern out better, but is potentially more dangerous to the blade. (this is the procedure that I use as it is much quicker and often provides more contrast)

1. After polishing as above, use acetone or denatured alcohol to degrease the blade. Both are flammable, so use good ventilation and follow the safety instructions on the can.
2. Mix one part Ferric Chloride, available in the US from Radio Shack as Printed circuit board etchant, with 3 or 4 parts distilled water.
3. Using rubber gloves saturate a rag or paper towel with the solution and rub it onto the blade. Put it on with a fully saturated rag, and wipe it on evenly. Do one side then the other, doing your best to cover the full side of the blade in one pass. Don’t let the solution run down into the grip. I use a plastic trough that is used to wet wallpaper that I bought at the local home improvements store to catch the drips.
4. When satisfied with the pattern, rinse with cold water.
5. Rub the blade with a rag or paper towel saturated with vinegar. I’ve read that this helps to stop the ferric chloride reaction.
6. Rinse with cold water.
7 Neutralize the acid by thoroughly rubbing the blade with ammonia, or window cleaner containing ammonia.
8. Rinse with cold water.
9 Dry the blade thoroughly, and oil it well with mineral oil, or whatever you currently use to prevent rust.

Robert

Montino Bourbon · 19th December 2010, 10:15 PM

Thank you so much; I started cleaning it up now. There are, unfortunately, some pretty deep scratches near the edge where it was probably put on a grinding stone. I'll do my best to take them out.

“Try not to cut your fingers off”; I love that. This Barung is wickedly sharp still.

Robert · 19th December 2010, 10:22 PM

Yes, Steve does have a great sense of humor.

Good luck and I hope you find something nice.

Robert

Nagawarrior · 20th December 2010, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

Thank you so much; I started cleaning it up now. There are, unfortunately, some pretty deep scratches near the edge where it was probably put on a grinding stone. I'll do my best to take them out.

“Try not to cut your fingers off”; I love that. This Barung is wickedly sharp still.

Its no joke. Do be very careful. I cut myself very bad

on a Mandau blade while polishing it. It has the concave side, making it very dangerous. Use a sanding block to help protect your fingers. The finished product is worth the work I should add. Have fun.

~Stephen*

Montino Bourbon · 20th December 2010, 01:57 AM

so I went ahead with 600 grit, followed by 1000 grit for the edge, then edged it with vinegar. Result; nothing.

I then tried again with ferric chloride diluted 4 to 1, and behold! Either a temper line, or an inserted edge, I'm not sure which, but it's very very clear.

Opinions, please?

Robert · 20th December 2010, 02:25 AM

Looks like an inserted hardened edge to me.

Robert

Montino Bourbon · 20th December 2010, 02:48 AM

does this mean that it's a better than average blade? Is an inserted edge normal? Is it usually found on tourist pieces? Please excuse my excitement. When I find something at the flea market for less than the price of dinner for one at a restaurant, and it turns out to be something decent, I'm always turned on. Thank you so much for your input and your knowledge.

Oh, and I almost forgot; what would I use to secure the blade in the handle?

Billman · 20th December 2010, 05:05 PM

Ref insrted edge - you guys must be sick to death of me going on about edge tools, but here is another instance of tool making technology that can apply to making swords and other weapons....

English scythe makers forge welded a sandwich of high carbon steel with a mild steel back between two pieces of wrought iron. This minimised the use of the more expensive carbon steel, gave a tough flexible body to the blade and protected the carbon stel during hardeneing and tempering. This technology continued up to the 1940's in Sheffield, and the 1960's in Belbroughton.

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqV3jtkQSe4 for the Clay Wheel Forge in Sheffield - a similar DVD/video of the Nash Works can be obtained from the Belbroughton History Society....

Other makers such as Elwell used their own rolled 'sandwich' and even offered it for sale to other edge tool makers..

Billhook makers also used the same methods in both France and the UK, although more commonly a high carbon steel was face welded to a softer body, giving a very pronounced weld line... Axe makers tended to insert a steel bit into the body, a method also used in the vineyard hoes of Bernard Solon (Maison Alexis) in Orléans, France

http://philippebachelier.com/Portfol...rtraits06.html or http://dytic.over-blog.com/article-d...-59608149.html there is an article in a french blacksmiths' magazine showing the stages in the manufacture - I do not have the web-link handy, but he won the annual prize for his work a few years ago...

The weld line clearly shows in the edge of the currier's knife made by Alfred Green (UK) and the difference in patination on the William Swift (UK) billhook, and very clear on the French billhook blade..

Robert · 21st December 2010, 02:30 AM

Hello Montino Bourbon, While I cannot say that it is a better than average blade, I will say that if it was made just for "those who travel" I can not see the person who made it going to the trouble of putting a hardened edge in the blade but this is just MHO. I have been waiting for those who are far more knowledgeable on these to join in on this discussion. As far as what to use to reattach the blade to the hilt, I would use pitch.

Robert

19th December 2010, 08:34 PM	#1
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	real or for travelers? And a surprise... I found this at a flea market near me. I'd like to know what everybody thinks. The blade has a really nice distal Taper. I would like to clean it up enough that I can see if it has an inserted edge, so I'm probably going to use very fine crocus cloth to polish it up. The handle is totally loose, and I'm not sure what to glue it back in with. The scabbard is marked “Kamlon Campaigned". Any ideas? Attached Images Last edited by Montino Bourbon; 20th December 2010 at 02:22 AM.

19th December 2010, 09:20 PM	#5
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	The Blade is one quarter of an inch thick at the hilt. Is it worth cleaning up? Would I use fine crocus cloth or some other thing to polish up the blade? Attached Images

20th December 2010, 01:57 AM	#12
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Surprise! so I went ahead with 600 grit, followed by 1000 grit for the edge, then edged it with vinegar. Result; nothing. I then tried again with ferric chloride diluted 4 to 1, and behold! Either a temper line, or an inserted edge, I'm not sure which, but it's very very clear. Opinions, please? Attached Images

20th December 2010, 02:48 AM	#14
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Please excuse my ignorance does this mean that it's a better than average blade? Is an inserted edge normal? Is it usually found on tourist pieces? Please excuse my excitement. When I find something at the flea market for less than the price of dinner for one at a restaurant, and it turns out to be something decent, I'm always turned on. Thank you so much for your input and your knowledge. Oh, and I almost forgot; what would I use to secure the blade in the handle?

20th December 2010, 05:05 PM	#15
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Ref insrted edge - you guys must be sick to death of me going on about edge tools, but here is another instance of tool making technology that can apply to making swords and other weapons.... English scythe makers forge welded a sandwich of high carbon steel with a mild steel back between two pieces of wrought iron. This minimised the use of the more expensive carbon steel, gave a tough flexible body to the blade and protected the carbon stel during hardeneing and tempering. This technology continued up to the 1940's in Sheffield, and the 1960's in Belbroughton. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqV3jtkQSe4 for the Clay Wheel Forge in Sheffield - a similar DVD/video of the Nash Works can be obtained from the Belbroughton History Society.... Other makers such as Elwell used their own rolled 'sandwich' and even offered it for sale to other edge tool makers.. Billhook makers also used the same methods in both France and the UK, although more commonly a high carbon steel was face welded to a softer body, giving a very pronounced weld line... Axe makers tended to insert a steel bit into the body, a method also used in the vineyard hoes of Bernard Solon (Maison Alexis) in Orléans, France http://philippebachelier.com/Portfol...rtraits06.html or http://dytic.over-blog.com/article-d...-59608149.html there is an article in a french blacksmiths' magazine showing the stages in the manufacture - I do not have the web-link handy, but he won the annual prize for his work a few years ago... The weld line clearly shows in the edge of the currier's knife made by Alfred Green (UK) and the difference in patination on the William Swift (UK) billhook, and very clear on the French billhook blade.. Attached Images Last edited by Billman; 20th December 2010 at 05:30 PM.

19th December 2010, 08:54 PM	#2
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Looks like it is a tourist piece to me. If it is you can just crazy/gorilla glue it. Cheers bbjw

19th December 2010, 09:07 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Real. Kamlon was Jikiri's version in the mid 1900's. A distant relative of mine fought in that campaign...

19th December 2010, 09:08 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Montino Bourbon, If you could, please post a close-ups of the hilt and blade. Could you also tell me how thick the blade is at the hilt? There is the possibility that it could be a good blade with a poor quality replacement hilt. Robert

19th December 2010, 09:26 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I agree with Spunjer. I would go ahead and clean it up and give it an etch just to see what happens. Robert

19th December 2010, 09:32 PM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	So nice to know that this has a chance of being real, especially since I picked it up at a flea market nearby from some gentlemen who didn't have the faintest idea what it was, and wanted to sell me some brass daggers from Spain that are real tourist pieces at about twice as much as what this cost me. What would you clean it up with? Or can you please direct me to a thread that would tell me how I would go about the process?

19th December 2010, 09:52 PM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	This is from a very helpful post made by one of our forum members Steve Ferguson. Here is the procedure that I use. Steve Please understand that there are as many methods to etch blades as there are people that do it. Do a search on etching and read what others have to say. Polish the blade by sanding with some very fine wet-or-dry sandpaper, starting with at least 400grit, then with 600, then as high as you want to go, up to 2000. Use Windex, or any brand window cleaner with ammonia to lubricate the sandpaper, and keep it from loading up. Try not to cut your fingers off. With each finer grit of sandpaper try to get any scratches out that were left by the previous sanding. 1. Use acetone or denatured alcohol to degrease the blade. Both are flammable, so use good ventilation and follow the safety instructions on the can. 2. Saturate a rag or paper towel with warm vinegar or pineapple juice and rub it onto the blade. Put it on with a fully saturated rag, and wipe it on evenly. Do one side then the other, doing your best to cover the full side of the blade in one pass. Don’t let the solution run down into the grip. I use a plastic trough that is used to wet wallpaper that I bought at the local home improvements store to catch the drips. 3. When satisfied with the pattern, rinse with cold water. 4. Neutralize the acid by rubbing the blade with a thick mixture of baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and water, or with ammonia, or window cleaner containing ammonia. 5. Rinse the blade in cold water. 6. Dry the blade thoroughly, and oil it well with mineral oil, or whatever you currently use to prevent rust. An alternative is to use ferric chloride. It works quicker and sometimes brings the pattern out better, but is potentially more dangerous to the blade. (this is the procedure that I use as it is much quicker and often provides more contrast) 1. After polishing as above, use acetone or denatured alcohol to degrease the blade. Both are flammable, so use good ventilation and follow the safety instructions on the can. 2. Mix one part Ferric Chloride, available in the US from Radio Shack as Printed circuit board etchant, with 3 or 4 parts distilled water. 3. Using rubber gloves saturate a rag or paper towel with the solution and rub it onto the blade. Put it on with a fully saturated rag, and wipe it on evenly. Do one side then the other, doing your best to cover the full side of the blade in one pass. Don’t let the solution run down into the grip. I use a plastic trough that is used to wet wallpaper that I bought at the local home improvements store to catch the drips. 4. When satisfied with the pattern, rinse with cold water. 5. Rub the blade with a rag or paper towel saturated with vinegar. I’ve read that this helps to stop the ferric chloride reaction. 6. Rinse with cold water. 7 Neutralize the acid by thoroughly rubbing the blade with ammonia, or window cleaner containing ammonia. 8. Rinse with cold water. 9 Dry the blade thoroughly, and oil it well with mineral oil, or whatever you currently use to prevent rust. Robert

19th December 2010, 10:15 PM	#9
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Thank you so much; I started cleaning it up now. There are, unfortunately, some pretty deep scratches near the edge where it was probably put on a grinding stone. I'll do my best to take them out. “Try not to cut your fingers off”; I love that. This Barung is wickedly sharp still.

19th December 2010, 10:22 PM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Yes, Steve does have a great sense of humor. Good luck and I hope you find something nice. Robert

20th December 2010, 02:25 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Looks like an inserted hardened edge to me. Robert

21st December 2010, 02:30 AM	#16
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Montino Bourbon, While I cannot say that it is a better than average blade, I will say that if it was made just for "those who travel" I can not see the person who made it going to the trouble of putting a hardened edge in the blade but this is just MHO. I have been waiting for those who are far more knowledgeable on these to join in on this discussion. As far as what to use to reattach the blade to the hilt, I would use pitch. Robert