Pamor

Rick · 26th January 2007, 01:51 AM

What's the consensus; did it develop as a result of basic san mai type construction ?
Or is there some other origin ?

Comments ?

ferrylaki · 26th January 2007, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

What's the consensus; did it develop as a result of basic san mai type construction ?
Or is there some other origin ?

Comments ?

in my origin central java Indonesia, pamor is more like a pattern that is appear on a keris, spears, or swords...pamor used to be from meteorite stone which these days called as titanium. but these meteorite stone become very rare and most keris makes uses nikel to make pamor in recent days.
pamor making should be based on several rules/pakem (javanese) .
a keris maker should make the pamor exactly like its plan before...some one order the keris maker to make specified pamored keris and then the keris maker/empu conduct the work.

David · 26th January 2007, 03:00 PM

Ferrylaki, i think you have misunderstood Rick's question. We are mostly all aware of what pamor IS or means. I believe Rick is asking for opinions on how it developed. Was it always intended or was it at first an accident of the forging process where the empu said, hey, that's a cool pattern, maybe i can do that on purpose next time...and better? Then slowly over time did the different patterns get assigned various meanings and attributes?
BTW, the question of meteoric ore in keris is one we have discussed here many times. Try the search function to see what was discussed. In all those many discussions i still have seen no evidence that meteoric ore was used in keris before the Prambanan meteorite fell in the mid 18th century. If you have any evidence to the contrary i would be very interested in hearing it.

BluErf · 28th January 2007, 04:24 AM

I guess it was a practical solution to an old problem - the ironsmiths/pandai besi/empu did not have very strong iron/steel alloys to work with. In order to strengthen the weapons/tools that they made, different metals were forged and folded together, which not only removed impurities but also resulted in a layered structure that was stronger than the individual component metals. Then maybe by some accident, or simply with the passage of time, differential oxidation rates or exposure to etching chemicals exposed the pamor patterns, and the people thought it was a nice thing to have, which led to the pandai besi/empu coming up with fancier and fancier patterns.

I am also guessing that san mai construction did not dictate the necessity for forged and folded material. If a certain kind of alloy met the strength requirement, it could be used as the sandwich material, while the cutting edge would be made of harder steel. If I'm not wrong, ancient bronze swords from China was cast with 2 different kinds of bronze - the spine and handle was made with a softer but stronger bronze, the cutting edge was made of a harder, but more brittle bronze (more antimony in the mix, I think). The technique was not forging and folding, but casting.

26th January 2007, 01:51 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Pamor What's the consensus; did it develop as a result of basic san mai type construction ? Or is there some other origin ? Comments ?

26th January 2007, 03:00 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Ferrylaki, i think you have misunderstood Rick's question. We are mostly all aware of what pamor IS or means. I believe Rick is asking for opinions on how it developed. Was it always intended or was it at first an accident of the forging process where the empu said, hey, that's a cool pattern, maybe i can do that on purpose next time...and better? Then slowly over time did the different patterns get assigned various meanings and attributes? BTW, the question of meteoric ore in keris is one we have discussed here many times. Try the search function to see what was discussed. In all those many discussions i still have seen no evidence that meteoric ore was used in keris before the Prambanan meteorite fell in the mid 18th century. If you have any evidence to the contrary i would be very interested in hearing it.

28th January 2007, 04:24 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I guess it was a practical solution to an old problem - the ironsmiths/pandai besi/empu did not have very strong iron/steel alloys to work with. In order to strengthen the weapons/tools that they made, different metals were forged and folded together, which not only removed impurities but also resulted in a layered structure that was stronger than the individual component metals. Then maybe by some accident, or simply with the passage of time, differential oxidation rates or exposure to etching chemicals exposed the pamor patterns, and the people thought it was a nice thing to have, which led to the pandai besi/empu coming up with fancier and fancier patterns. I am also guessing that san mai construction did not dictate the necessity for forged and folded material. If a certain kind of alloy met the strength requirement, it could be used as the sandwich material, while the cutting edge would be made of harder steel. If I'm not wrong, ancient bronze swords from China was cast with 2 different kinds of bronze - the spine and handle was made with a softer but stronger bronze, the cutting edge was made of a harder, but more brittle bronze (more antimony in the mix, I think). The technique was not forging and folding, but casting.