Mutilated Kaskara on Ebay

stephen wood · 30th October 2010, 01:05 AM

Just finished on ebay - textbook "kaskara fake". Langet sawn off. And with a classic "engmatic mark" too..

Jim McDougall · 30th October 2010, 01:29 AM

Interesting. Why go to all this trouble to fake a kaskara? Its not like they're that rare!
Never did discover why the 'comet' marking that was supposed to be linked to the Mahdi's appearance was found on Taureg swords.

Rumpel · 30th October 2010, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Interesting. Why go to all this trouble to fake a kaskara? Its not like they're that rare!
Never did discover why the 'comet' marking that was supposed to be linked to the Mahdi's appearance was found on Taureg swords.

East-west trade, across Darfur? It's the exact transverse of the salt/slave caravan route from Timbuktu->Khartoum, the sort of Sahelian Silk Road.

I vaguely recollect Mahdiism penetrating French Africa- I think in The Cross and The Sword...? I think even the utterly unreliable PC Wren creates a pseudo-Mahdiist scenario in Beau Sabreur, though he was writing for an Edwardian English audience.

Above sword was probably mutilated for a swords-n-snakes fantasy nerd, as if its actual history weren't interesting enough...

TVV · 30th October 2010, 01:54 AM

Jim,

I think Rumpel is right - whoever mutilated this sword was not doing it to imitate a kaskara, but rather to turn a kaskara into a medieval European sword and sell it for a premium. Or of course, it could have been a fantasy larp nerd looking for a fancy prop, but they are usually satsfied with plastic and wooden swords and the modifications here suggest insidious intent to me.

Oh well, thanks for postign Stephen, and I hope one day we get an answer to the origin and meaning of the comet mark.

Regards,
Teodor

stephen wood · 30th October 2010, 02:43 AM

...a very interesting mark - I had the opportunity to examine this kaskara from Anthony North's collection before it went to auction. As well as celestial marks, koranic inscription and a lion and o+ (very faint), there is, under the langet, a small "comet" mark. Unlooked-for and unnoticed.

Lee · 30th October 2010, 12:03 PM

Unfortunately, a lot of kaskaras met this fate over the last 50 years.

I had somehow missed the interpretation of this mark as a comet previously; very interesting!

stephen wood · 30th October 2010, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

Unlooked-for and unnoticed.

...not unnoticed by Anthony North I'm sure...

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2010, 06:17 AM

Hi Teodor,
Thank you for responding personally, and I agree on the good suggestion by Rumpel. As Lee has agreed, many kaskaras haved met this unfortunate fate with these feeble efforts to simulate medieval swords, and Mr.Oakeshott has commented on this as well.
Obviously the trade routes account for the diffusion of these blades, and it is interesting to see this 'enigmatic' marking, which apparantly has distinct foundation on blades from Tuareg provenance, turning up mounted in kaskaras. This would diminish the ideas of the 'comet' association and the connections to the Mahdi in symbolism of the Sudan.

I think Briggs has the most probable track with this unusual marking, which he describes as resembling a 'flaming grenade' (p. 81). These markings are apparantly dramatically stylized interpretations of more European symbols found on a Tuareg chiefs sword from Air; with these renderings from a Tiounfara chiefs sword. Both swords were taken during rebellion of 1916-17.
To further describe the source of the marks, they are likely derived from Solingen markings from earlier North Italian marks and used in the 17th century, copied into the 19th.

I agree that the markings would certainly have been noticed by Mr.North, always an astute scholar on arms with considerable awareness of such details, thank you for adjusting that Stephen

It is interesting that the native armourers often copied certain marks somewhat faithfully when they were recognizable depictions, but these marks which were already elaborately stylized even in European use would have been perfectly acceptable to be interpreted with native perspective artistically.

I do think that many of the European talismanic marks were readily adopted as is by native armourers in many cases as they were easily dovetailed into existing folk religion symbolism, with its many celestial applications. The 'lohr' type panels on blades of course favored the crescent moon symbolism, and the star and sun face are seen as well, though I'm not sure the native armourers copied them as much as the moons. It would be tempting to consider the stylized bee type mark from Tuareg regions to have been adopted in the comet sense in the Sudan with these type motifs, but would need far more research to establish.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 31st October 2010, 01:21 PM

It seems that these are often the victim of either ignorance, wishful thinking or genuine nefariousness.
Kaskaras are one of the most misrepresented weapons I see!
Not from sellers here, but at fairs etc.
Ones with old trade blades seem to often get 'the treatment' or just be misidentified as completely European.
Ones with native made blades of trade blade style are always upgraded to 'ancestral European blade' and modern toss is invariably antique!

Something about the 'Knightly' style of these seem to make dealers think they've got Excaliber!

I'd actually quite like a nice one, but..........

Jim McDougall · 31st October 2010, 08:11 PM

Very well put Gene! It seems to me to parallel the unscrupulous pillaging of archeological sites by hoarders and hawkers. These weapons are often in effect anthropological sites in themselves holding important historical information. How unfortunate that too many dont see them that way.

Giving more thought to the 'enigmatic' symbols seen on these blades.
While I mentioned the 'bee' symbol used in Solingen, the thought of the scorpion device often seen on Italian blades through the 16th century and probably later. Again, while these were typically makers marks, it does seem that the scorpion was perceived in folk religion as an apotropaic.

In Arabian sa'if, the scabbard often has a stylized device at the throat of the scabbard termed the 'aghrab' (=scorpion). This geometrically stylized device, no matter how I look at it, does not resemble an actual scorpion to me, but regardless, this is how it is perceived.
Among the Berber tribes in Kabylia, the well known flyssa has such attention to apotropaic devices in geometric style it is nearly a stereotype.

In a review of the work by Jean Gabus ("Au Sahara II, 1958) it is noted that the author strives to show the manner in which each artisan may interpret the symbolism for his own ends. This work reflects eight field investigations of Mauretanians, Tuareg and Fulani from 1942-1958 by the Musee d'Ethnographie of Nuechatel.

Perhaps the apotropaic explanation as a device to protect from the evil eye might be at the root of the enigmatic marking?
What say you Stephen?

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2010, 05:09 PM

RIP

stephen wood · 3rd November 2010, 01:36 AM

...well, going back to the multiple-marked sword from Anthony North's collection for example, where the wolf, the cross and orb, the lion, the pious text and the enigmatic "comet" coexist, I think we could break down Sudanese/Tuareg marks into types: some which are intended to show the quality of the blade, some which are pre-Islamic talismans, some - like koranic scripts - explicitly Islamic. And a single mark might move to and fro between categories. So we get to the point where, for example, a virtually unintelligable Thuluth phrase gets repeated around a blade like a mantra - text becomes talisman.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2010, 02:07 AM

Thanks, its good to hear your perspective Stephen. That does seem like a viable solution.

Rumpel · 3rd November 2010, 11:53 PM

Ref trans-Sahelian stylistic transmission generally, the Pitt Rivers is reassuringly vague:

"The flaring leaf-shaped lower portion of the scabbard is said to represent the head of a crocodile and can also seen on the scabbard of the straight kaskara sword of the Eastern Sudan, on the opposite side of the continent’s Sudanic belt. Some scholars think the most plausible explanation for the unusual scabbard form appearing in two places over 3000 miles apart is that it was carried westward across the Sudan by successive waves of Islamic warriors over the last one thousand years."

So, like, yeah. OK.

http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ica/1929.12.3/

I guess the same may or may not go for other stylistic aspects. Perhaps.

Jim McDougall · 4th November 2010, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Ref trans-Sahelian stylistic transmission generally, the Pitt Rivers is reassuringly vague:

"The flaring leaf-shaped lower portion of the scabbard is said to represent the head of a crocodile and can also seen on the scabbard of the straight kaskara sword of the Eastern Sudan, on the opposite side of the continent’s Sudanic belt. Some scholars think the most plausible explanation for the unusual scabbard form appearing in two places over 3000 miles apart is that it was carried westward across the Sudan by successive waves of Islamic warriors over the last one thousand years."

So, like, yeah. OK.

http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ica/1929.12.3/

I guess the same may or may not go for other stylistic aspects. Perhaps.

Its true, some scholars do follow that plausible assumption based on the obvious association by shape on the scabbard tip. In Burton's "Book of the Sword" one of his drawings presumes the kaskara tip also had the flared tip as seen on the scabbard. I personally have never seen a kaskara nor takouba with such a flared tip.

The complexity of the trans Saharan caravans, tribal interaction, Pilgrimages eastward by Muslims to Mecca as well as interconnecting trade via many centers are all factors naturally leading into the diffusion of these influences.
There are many similarities in weapons of Morocco seen on the opposite side of the continent as far as Zanzibar, and the flared tip scabbard seen on the Manding scabbards in Mali is indeed noted. Also notable is the guardless hilt of the Manding sabre resembling the kattara of Oman, whose influence travelled westward from the Omani Sultanate in Zanzibar across the trade routes to Mali, one of the key cultural centers of Islam.

30th October 2010, 01:05 AM	#1
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Mutilated Kaskara on Ebay Just finished on ebay - textbook "kaskara fake". Langet sawn off. And with a classic "engmatic mark" too.. Attached Images

30th October 2010, 02:43 AM	#5
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...a very interesting mark - I had the opportunity to examine this kaskara from Anthony North's collection before it went to auction. As well as celestial marks, koranic inscription and a lion and o+ (very faint), there is, under the langet, a small "comet" mark. Unlooked-for and unnoticed. Attached Images

30th October 2010, 12:03 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Sadly, not that uncommon Unfortunately, a lot of kaskaras met this fate over the last 50 years. I had somehow missed the interpretation of this mark as a comet previously; very interesting!

30th October 2010, 01:29 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Interesting. Why go to all this trouble to fake a kaskara? Its not like they're that rare! Never did discover why the 'comet' marking that was supposed to be linked to the Mahdi's appearance was found on Taureg swords.

30th October 2010, 01:54 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Jim, I think Rumpel is right - whoever mutilated this sword was not doing it to imitate a kaskara, but rather to turn a kaskara into a medieval European sword and sell it for a premium. Or of course, it could have been a fantasy larp nerd looking for a fancy prop, but they are usually satsfied with plastic and wooden swords and the modifications here suggest insidious intent to me. Oh well, thanks for postign Stephen, and I hope one day we get an answer to the origin and meaning of the comet mark. Regards, Teodor

31st October 2010, 06:17 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Hi Teodor, Thank you for responding personally, and I agree on the good suggestion by Rumpel. As Lee has agreed, many kaskaras haved met this unfortunate fate with these feeble efforts to simulate medieval swords, and Mr.Oakeshott has commented on this as well. Obviously the trade routes account for the diffusion of these blades, and it is interesting to see this 'enigmatic' marking, which apparantly has distinct foundation on blades from Tuareg provenance, turning up mounted in kaskaras. This would diminish the ideas of the 'comet' association and the connections to the Mahdi in symbolism of the Sudan. I think Briggs has the most probable track with this unusual marking, which he describes as resembling a 'flaming grenade' (p. 81). These markings are apparantly dramatically stylized interpretations of more European symbols found on a Tuareg chiefs sword from Air; with these renderings from a Tiounfara chiefs sword. Both swords were taken during rebellion of 1916-17. To further describe the source of the marks, they are likely derived from Solingen markings from earlier North Italian marks and used in the 17th century, copied into the 19th. I agree that the markings would certainly have been noticed by Mr.North, always an astute scholar on arms with considerable awareness of such details, thank you for adjusting that Stephen It is interesting that the native armourers often copied certain marks somewhat faithfully when they were recognizable depictions, but these marks which were already elaborately stylized even in European use would have been perfectly acceptable to be interpreted with native perspective artistically. I do think that many of the European talismanic marks were readily adopted as is by native armourers in many cases as they were easily dovetailed into existing folk religion symbolism, with its many celestial applications. The 'lohr' type panels on blades of course favored the crescent moon symbolism, and the star and sun face are seen as well, though I'm not sure the native armourers copied them as much as the moons. It would be tempting to consider the stylized bee type mark from Tuareg regions to have been adopted in the comet sense in the Sudan with these type motifs, but would need far more research to establish. All best regards, Jim

31st October 2010, 01:21 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	It seems that these are often the victim of either ignorance, wishful thinking or genuine nefariousness. Kaskaras are one of the most misrepresented weapons I see! Not from sellers here, but at fairs etc. Ones with old trade blades seem to often get 'the treatment' or just be misidentified as completely European. Ones with native made blades of trade blade style are always upgraded to 'ancestral European blade' and modern toss is invariably antique! Something about the 'Knightly' style of these seem to make dealers think they've got Excaliber! I'd actually quite like a nice one, but..........

31st October 2010, 08:11 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Very well put Gene! It seems to me to parallel the unscrupulous pillaging of archeological sites by hoarders and hawkers. These weapons are often in effect anthropological sites in themselves holding important historical information. How unfortunate that too many dont see them that way. Giving more thought to the 'enigmatic' symbols seen on these blades. While I mentioned the 'bee' symbol used in Solingen, the thought of the scorpion device often seen on Italian blades through the 16th century and probably later. Again, while these were typically makers marks, it does seem that the scorpion was perceived in folk religion as an apotropaic. In Arabian sa'if, the scabbard often has a stylized device at the throat of the scabbard termed the 'aghrab' (=scorpion). This geometrically stylized device, no matter how I look at it, does not resemble an actual scorpion to me, but regardless, this is how it is perceived. Among the Berber tribes in Kabylia, the well known flyssa has such attention to apotropaic devices in geometric style it is nearly a stereotype. In a review of the work by Jean Gabus ("Au Sahara II, 1958) it is noted that the author strives to show the manner in which each artisan may interpret the symbolism for his own ends. This work reflects eight field investigations of Mauretanians, Tuareg and Fulani from 1942-1958 by the Musee d'Ethnographie of Nuechatel. Perhaps the apotropaic explanation as a device to protect from the evil eye might be at the root of the enigmatic marking? What say you Stephen? All best regards, Jim

2nd November 2010, 05:09 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	RIP

3rd November 2010, 01:36 AM	#12
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...well, going back to the multiple-marked sword from Anthony North's collection for example, where the wolf, the cross and orb, the lion, the pious text and the enigmatic "comet" coexist, I think we could break down Sudanese/Tuareg marks into types: some which are intended to show the quality of the blade, some which are pre-Islamic talismans, some - like koranic scripts - explicitly Islamic. And a single mark might move to and fro between categories. So we get to the point where, for example, a virtually unintelligable Thuluth phrase gets repeated around a blade like a mantra - text becomes talisman.

3rd November 2010, 02:07 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Thanks, its good to hear your perspective Stephen. That does seem like a viable solution.

3rd November 2010, 11:53 PM	#14
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Ref trans-Sahelian stylistic transmission generally, the Pitt Rivers is reassuringly vague: "The flaring leaf-shaped lower portion of the scabbard is said to represent the head of a crocodile and can also seen on the scabbard of the straight kaskara sword of the Eastern Sudan, on the opposite side of the continent’s Sudanic belt. Some scholars think the most plausible explanation for the unusual scabbard form appearing in two places over 3000 miles apart is that it was carried westward across the Sudan by successive waves of Islamic warriors over the last one thousand years." So, like, yeah. OK. http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ica/1929.12.3/ I guess the same may or may not go for other stylistic aspects. Perhaps.