Persian Shamshir fullering techniques and their Afghan imitations

Sakalord364 · 20th March 2024, 01:45 AM

It’s interesting to compare the Persian blades that have the interesting “U-Turn/Segmented” fullering style which was created in Persia, to the examples which was then copied by Afghan and North Indian smiths to varying degrees of accuracy. I wonder if the Persians were inspired by the fullers on German/Italian export blades, because it it certain that the fullers on Indian blades were often inspired by the many European blades imported into India.

The Afghan copy here imitates a similar Persian blade, however the fullers are much cruder. The Afghan smith likely wasn’t familiar with the exact technique the Persians used to create the fullers, and unlike Persia Afghanistan did not have a massive blade manufacturing industry, it was just individual smiths or small operations making blades for the local population, and this particular smith likely didn’t find it worth the time to spend hours trying to precisely imitate a foreign design like these fullers.

serdar · 27th March 2024, 01:49 AM

Hmmm i think Â“realÂ” persian shamshirs in general werent fulered, saifs had fulers.
But indian they do have fulers.

David R · 29th March 2024, 01:32 AM

I see that fuller style as being more Central Asian or even Chinese in origin.

mariusgmioc · 29th March 2024, 08:52 AM

Yep, like Serdar and David said earlier, Persian blades had no fullers. The fullers where a characteristic of Central Asian and North Indian blades.

However, Persian blades were traded and could have fullers added later, in local Central Asian workshops.

Regarding your blades, I believe the first one is late 19th century North Indian, because of the style of the damascening cartridges, and because of the fullers. Also the fact it is not wootz (apparently) and the configuration of the scabbard with European style chape appear to indicate later production.

ausjulius · 30th March 2024, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I see that fuller style as being more Central Asian or even Chinese in origin.

those types of fullers are introdueced to china from iran and the persian domain, caucasus and central asia .

David R · 30th March 2024, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

those types of fullers are introdueced to china from iran and the persian domain, caucasus and central asia .

Evidence?

Bob A · 30th March 2024, 11:41 PM

Were you able to ascertain whether there was any similarity if the inscriptions between the two swirds?

Insofar as the Afghan example seems to have copied, rather than originated, the fuller design, and with the disparate origins and levels of sophistication between the two, I wonder where/how an Afghan bladesmith might have had access to an example to copy.

Further examples of this fuller style would be appreciated, if anyone can post them up.

20th March 2024, 01:45 AM	#1
Sakalord364 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	Persian Shamshir fullering techniques and their Afghan imitations It’s interesting to compare the Persian blades that have the interesting “U-Turn/Segmented” fullering style which was created in Persia, to the examples which was then copied by Afghan and North Indian smiths to varying degrees of accuracy. I wonder if the Persians were inspired by the fullers on German/Italian export blades, because it it certain that the fullers on Indian blades were often inspired by the many European blades imported into India. The Afghan copy here imitates a similar Persian blade, however the fullers are much cruder. The Afghan smith likely wasn’t familiar with the exact technique the Persians used to create the fullers, and unlike Persia Afghanistan did not have a massive blade manufacturing industry, it was just individual smiths or small operations making blades for the local population, and this particular smith likely didn’t find it worth the time to spend hours trying to precisely imitate a foreign design like these fullers. Attached Images

27th March 2024, 01:49 AM	#2
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 56	Hmmm i think Â“realÂ” persian shamshirs in general werent fulered, saifs had fulers. But indian they do have fulers.

29th March 2024, 01:32 AM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I see that fuller style as being more Central Asian or even Chinese in origin.

29th March 2024, 08:52 AM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Yep, like Serdar and David said earlier, Persian blades had no fullers. The fullers where a characteristic of Central Asian and North Indian blades. However, Persian blades were traded and could have fullers added later, in local Central Asian workshops. Regarding your blades, I believe the first one is late 19th century North Indian, because of the style of the damascening cartridges, and because of the fullers. Also the fact it is not wootz (apparently) and the configuration of the scabbard with European style chape appear to indicate later production.

30th March 2024, 11:41 PM	#7
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 428	Were you able to ascertain whether there was any similarity if the inscriptions between the two swirds? Insofar as the Afghan example seems to have copied, rather than originated, the fuller design, and with the disparate origins and levels of sophistication between the two, I wonder where/how an Afghan bladesmith might have had access to an example to copy. Further examples of this fuller style would be appreciated, if anyone can post them up.