help identifying writing system

[fernando]

Hi gentlemen
I am trying to figure out the origin of a flintlock pistol i have acquired.
I am aware that this forum members cover a wide range of language
knowledgements.
Is there somebody familiar to this type of caligraphy, to coment on what could be written in this engraving on its barrel.
Thanks a lot.

[Rick]

Can you show us a picture of the entire pistol please Fernando .
Often form is key to identification of origin which will then help in identifying the language of the inscription .

[Tim Simmons]

This is just a thought from the hip. I have dha with the same type of silver wire hammered into crosshatching to form floral patterns as on this pistol, maybe that is a clue. Tim

[ham]

This is an Ottoman flintlock pistol dating after 1800, the inscription is in Arabic characters however it is very poorly written and the image is reversed 180 degrees.


Ham

[fernando]

Thank you Ham, for the info on the arabic script and also on the model being Ottoman. I will follow your track, for further investigation.
Thank you Rick and T
I still insert the pistol pictures, Rick and Tim, which i had just taken. An ethno type of pistol, with the usual mix of pronenances, like the poorly fitted brass butt cap, saved from a western pistol, and the naive insertion of a crest, probably from the same origin. The large brass bands seem to be from the original mounting, as matching with the disposition of the barrel decorations, which i take as an added value in these pieces, although i favour the existance of the barrel inscription, and the whatever contents of its text.
I hope to get further with that.

[Battara]

Looking at the rest of the pictures, could it be Balkan, say, Albanian?

[Rivkin]

Novice's question - this writing (as well as writing on some other ottoman artefacts) looks exactly like "iranian arabic" to me - is it really close to iranian writing or it's just me ?

[Battara]

It is not unusual to have Persian on Ottoman pieces. Some of the smiths and workers came from the Persian court and were employed by the Ottomans.

[ham]

This touches on a complex subject-- here are a few thoughts which hopefully will clarify the use of the term "Arabic": Arabic is both a language belonging to the Semitic family, spoken by Arab peoples, and the name of the alphabet used to express that language beginning in 4th century Arabia; it predates the rise of Islam and derives from Nabatean. After the spread of Islam, Arabic script was adopted by subject peoples, many of whom also became Muslim. Some of these adopted Arabic as a spoken language as well, most did not. Any Muslim who became a scholar however, regardless of origin, necessarily learned it.

Contrary to popular conception, Arabic, Persian and the Turkic languages are linguistically unrelated. However Arabic, as the language of the conquerors AND Islam, strongly influenced both Persian and Turkish, primarily through loan words and to a lesser extent, gramatically. Prior to their exposure to Islam and the Arabic language and alphabet, both Persian and Turkic cultures also had alphabets of their own. These fell out of use after the advent of Islam but are preserved in coins and other artefacts as well as stone carvings in a variety of spots throughout Iran and the Central Asian steppes. The use of the Arabic alphabet also occurred among subject peoples who did not convert to Islam-- in the 10th-12th century, the Muslim Fatimid Dynasty of North Africa contained large numbers of Christians and Jews in its capital at Cairo. Both churches and synagogues there bore public texts in Coptic and Hebrew; these were often expressed in the Arabic alphabet.

Regardless of the culture which uses it then, this symbol system qualifies as, simply, the Arabic alphabet. Certain "fonts" of Arabic are associated more with particular areas than others, however. In the Ottoman Empire, a font called "sulus," the Turkish rendering of the Arabic "thuluth" (meaning "one third," and refering to the even proportions of that particular font) was popular for official documents and public embellishments, while in Iran, "Nastaliq," a very flowing font, was popular for the same purposes during the height of the Safavid Dynasty. Despite the addition of certain characters (such as a "ch" and "p,") both the alphabets used in the Ottoman Empire and Iran remain Arabic. (As a side issue, Battara's comment above is quite accurate: Persian was also used as a poetic language among educated aristocrats in the Ottoman Empire -- a bit like graduate students at ivy league philosophy department cocktail parties tossing around Latin or French phrases in conversation, with the intention of dazzling coeds.)

Further, Arabic was (and is) the liturgical language of any Islamic state worldwide, though not necessarily the spoken language. Returning to the pistol under discussion above, the inscription definitely uses the Arabic alphabet, however it is not distinctive enough to assign a font-- nor for that matter is it even distinct. It is either exceedingly esoteric... or very poorly written, probably the latter. Often in cases like this, the inscription was copied from another item by an illiterate craftsman.

Comparable circumstances apply in Western Europe. The Latin alphabet used by the Romans was imposed upon and adopted by the peoples they conquered as well, including Europe and the British Isles. Today, English, French, German, and Italian to name a few, are written in the same Latin alphabet, though all have added characters or diacriticals (the French accent grave and aigu marks, and the German umlauts) to allow them to express the sounds of their particular languages more accurately. Therefore, a Frenchman can easily read English or German letters, whether or not he comprehends the meaning of the words. Likewise, though perhaps more painful on the ears, an Englishman can do the same... again however, he will likely not know their meaning.

To recap: despite the fact that Arabic, Persian and Turkish all used the same alphabet well into the 20th century, they are mutually legible though not mutually intelligible (outside of loan words and certain religious quotations which are universal among Muslims.) Part of the problem for students of Islamic cultures is that the term "Arabic" identifies both the language and the alphabet. For this reason, the written languages discussed above are referred to by their names, i.e. Arabic, Turkish, Persian... since it it is already understood that they are all rendered in the same alphabet.

Hopefully, the brief and general nature of the foregoing does not limit its usefulness.


Ham

[fernando]

I humbly thank you Ham, for the finest clarification of the term "Arabic".
Your paragraph on the influence of dominant alphabets and languages, like Latin, reminds me that only after 1960 the Catholic Mass stopped being dealt in actual Latin, with everybody reading out loud the Latin prayers and Bible parts, without comprehending what the words meant, except for the Priest. One other interesting angle is that, High degree diplomas are still nowadays being issued in real parchment and written in Latin ... at least over here.
I started yesterday searching the Net on the pistol model, following the Ottoman track, and saw partly similar examples, quoted as of an Ottoman ( Turkish ) pattern.
I also queried a Persian Forum, to check on the Farsi possibility. The following were the answers:

Sorry, but that doesn't look like Persian. Even if it is, it is certainly not legible..

Looks like Arabic to me. The rightmost word seems to be the Arabic word: SAN'A meaning manufactured or built. The second word must be a name..

I wonder if the second answer is a promising aproach.

[ham]

Hm. Looking at the image right way 'round, one can (very weakly) argue that at the far left, there are some squiggles which if pressed, could be read as a date, 1220, or about 1806 in the Muslim calendar-- however these are interspersed with another character which could be taken as a 5, though I think that is just a diacritical mark, perhaps a "sukuun." Gads, what a mess. This fellow's Arabic instructor would have rapped his knuckles bloody if he ever saw it.
The primary concern here however is that this piece does not likely date so early. Possibly the barrel and lock do, suggesting they were restocked in the latter 19th century. A feasible, if circuitous, path to the present.

Sincerely,

Ham

[fernando]

Thank you so much.
Could i infer that there is ( at least ) a third word in the midle of the inscription, like the whole text meanning: Made by "Abdulah" ( in the year ) 1220 ? This would already be encouraging!
Isn't Islamic year 1220 equivalent to Christian 1842 ?
This would reduce the span between the aparent oldness of the barrel and lock, and the newness of the stock. I stress this point, as the decoration on the barrel is not continuous, but divided in sections, with border lines perfectly aligned with the barrel bands angular format and position. This is only achieved with an intrinsecal first mounting ... very unlikely the restocking smith would achieve or care for such a precision, making invisible any marks of bands readjustment, or their matching with the engraving borders.
This to say that, to my non expert view, if the stock is newer than the rest, on wich i actually agree, we can not exclude that this was the first one that was fitted on the pistol, which is not so unusual in this type of weapons, often made with parts of various origins and generations.
Also peculiar to me is the counter lockplate, wich is made in thin brass sheet ( not shown in the pictures ), in the same material, with the same patina with precisely the same puncture decoration as the barrel bands ... so not a later repair.
On the other hand , the bass trigger guard seems to be from a different family, with a floral deep engraving.
Sorry to be so long, and probably so wrong.

[TVV]

Wow, this pistol is indeed most interesting. The brass plating is most deffinitely Balkan, as brass fastening plates were widely used on firarms, produced there. The lock is not the typical muquelet lock one expects to find on early specimens form the Balkans, however, but one needs to keep in mind that local craftsmen began producing French type locks, as the French lock mechanism was superior to the miquelet one. So far everything is somewhat consistent, but the trigger guard, the crest and the butt cap are Western. It could have been a Western pistol, which was exported to the Balkan provinces of the Ottoman empire, where it was redecorated according to its owner's preferences, However, I personally think that it is most likely a Frankenstein of sorts: the stock was taken from one pistol, the lock from aanother and the brass plates were added in the final assembly. This could have been done long time ago, and it would not be a surprise, as it was a common practice for gunsmiths in the Balkans to reuse every possible part, but it also could have been done quite recently by a collector, which for your benefit I hope is not the case. One just needs to consider all options. With flintlock pistols being quite expensive, many collectors are compelled to buy different parts and put them together. Just my two cents.
Best regards,
Teodor

[fernando]

I wonder if the silver inlay could be executed after the pistol was already mounted. Then it would be rational to assume that the pistol was mounted in the late XIX century, as you estimated, with a period stock and an older lock and barrel set ... but not necessarily old as dated in the inscription. As you previously introduced, the local illiterate craftsman might have copied the whole text from an older finer example.
If any further coments on the text translation, just please tell.
Kind regards
And apologies to the Forum Staff, if i went too far with this type of topic.

[bj211]

Hi Ham…
What do you think? Can you confirm any of this ?
any corrections? i'm sure Tunisia was not ment to be there!!
maybe a similar sounding Ottman region that you know of?!

[ham]

Originally Posted by bj211

Hi Ham…
What do you think? Can you confirm any of this ?
any corrections? i'm sure Tunisia was not ment to be there!!
maybe a similar sounding Ottman region that you know of?!

Salaam alaikum ya BJ,

Ahlan w'sahlan fil Sword Forum. Anta 'al ustadh al lughat al'arbiyya, ana talib faqat. Min 'aina anta ya akhi?
We are indeed fortunate to have such a colleague, welcome.
The 20th century date and poor calligraphy are consistent, not as an indication of manufacture, simply of the period of embellishment-- likely in the Tunis arms bazaar.

Ham

[bj211]

Wa Alaikum Al Salam ya Ham

Thank you very much for the kind and worm welcome. And for a student, your Arabic language knowledge is superb.

I’m from a small country in the Arab world, Kuwait. My passion for Arab & Islamic art comes from the fact that I belong to the “ society of the Dar Athar Alislamia “

Min 'aina anta ya sadeeqi?

[fernando]

Thank you BJ and Ham
This is what i got after cleaning ( and varnishing ) the pistol.
The year digit apparently looks like an arabic 5 and not a 9, but what do i know?
Can you now have a more clear reading of the inscription, namely the "Tuinisia" word ?
Thanks
fernando

[ham]

Fernando,

Yes, MADE IN TUNIS is quite clear now, you've done a very nice job bringing out the silverwork. The second digit from the left is, strictly speaking, a "5"
but with the addition of a short tail on the right it would be a "9" much like our own. Now, seeing it clean and legible, I suspect the craftsman inlaid the numerals to reflect an earlier date, yet one which could still be read as the actual one contextually. These inscriptions are really a holistic process-- the sum of the whole truly is greater than its parts. Neither the use of the term "san'at" ("crafted") nor the phrase in which it appears, "Crafted In Tunis" are at all characteristic of period maker's inscriptions. This refelcts a great deal of Western influence, in my opinion (i.e. Made in Paris or Made in Rome.)
The pistol certainly is 19th century. As we have discussed, it is the silverwork which is more recent.

BJ akhi,
Shuf, andek email

Ham

[fernando]

أنا شكرًا جدًّا

[fernando]

What puzzles me is that the interpretation of the numbers seem to different from what was quoted here. BJ description of number 3 is seen in several sources as being number 2. I was recently visited by my Moroccan working coleagues, and they also say that the date in the inscription is 1522. Could it be that Kwait arabic variable has as a different graphism for the numbers ?Also to consider that in fact this type of digits is what Arabs call "indian numbers", as in fact they originate from Hindu numbers. In a more ortodox arabic they write numbers with wordings, not figures.

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by bj211

“ society of the Dar Athar Alislamia “

House of ... Islam?

[bj211]

house of islamic archaeology