Please help me identify these.

[CPT Kight]

I am deployed to Iraq and purchased these as Iraqi sword an knifes. They have the following written on them:

Sword= 1171 and "In the name of GOD"
Matching knife "There is no God but God."
Horse head knife "In the name of God"

They have either ivory, or horn handles, and silver sheaths, and
all of the blades are Demascus.

If any one could tell me any thing about these I would appriciate it.

My intent is to place these in a display case as a memoir of my time spent over here.

Thank you,
CPT Kight

[erlikhan]

I am afraid they dont look antique but quite newly made Indian or Pakistani stuff (top quality samples of them) but I can be wrong. Are the blade edges sharp?
regards

[Rick]

Start looking for pieces that look more like these :
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000882.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001312.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001605.html

[CPT Kight]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I am afraid they dont look antique but quite newly made Indian or Pakistani stuff (top quality samples of them) but I can be wrong. Are the blade edges sharp?
regards

No, the edges appear to have been dulled down.
I should mention that the Damascus used in the blades is true Damascus. On the knife with the handle that matches the sword some rust has begun to work at the back of the blade and the rust appears to be between some of the layers of the Damascus. I have checked with several of the local interpreters that we use here and they feel that the knifes and sword are in fact the real thing. They have nothing to gain or lose in stating their assessment. (I have not, nor will I be purchasing from them.) Also I have spent the last 11 months looking at various broken down, imitation, and replicated, knifes from all over, some very cheep some very nice imitations. I do not believe this to be one of them. I have been around knifes, knife making, smithing, and foundry work sense I was a child. I have yet to see someone actually go through the work required to build the Damascus blades in an effort to build an imitation. There are ways to fake Damascus but these blades show the fine lines between the layers even on the edge. with a thumb nail you can even feel the micro serrations along the cutting edge of the blades. I know they look new. Good for me they have been well preserved. I spent a great deal of time with mild hand soap and a buffing cloth to clean them up. I sprayed them down with WD-40 and took the pictures before I wiped off the excess WD-40. They appear shiny for that reason.

I am interested in the design, and where they may have come from in this region. I am not concerned about their authenticity.

Thank you for your input I know it is difficult to judge some thing via photo.
CPT Kight

[spiral]

Quote:
Originally Posted by erlikhan
I am afraid they dont look antique but quite newly made Indian or Pakistani stuff (top quality samples of them) but I can be wrong. Are the blade edges sharp?
regards

Quote.

No, the edges appear to have been dulled down.
I should mention that the Damascus used in the blades is true Damascus. On the knife with the handle that matches the sword some rust has begun to work at the back of the blade and the rust appears to be between some of the layers of the Damascus. I have checked with several of the local interpreters that we use here and they feel that the knifes and sword are in fact the real thing. They have nothing to gain or lose in stating their assessment. (I have not, nor will I be purchasing from them.) Also I have spent the last 11 months looking at various broken down, imitation, and replicated, knifes from all over, some very cheep some very nice imitations. I do not believe this to be one of them. I have been around knifes, knife making, smithing, and foundry work sense I was a child. I have yet to see someone actually go through the work required to build the Damascus blades in an effort to build an imitation. There are ways to fake Damascus but these blades show the fine lines between the layers even on the edge. with a thumb nail you can even feel the micro serrations along the cutting edge of the blades. I know they look new. Good for me they have been well preserved. I spent a great deal of time with mild hand soap and a buffing cloth to clean them up. I sprayed them down with WD-40 and took the pictures before I wiped off the excess WD-40. They appear shiny for that reason.

I am interested in the design, and where they may have come from in this region. I am not concerned about their authenticity.

Thank you for your input I know it is difficult to judge some thing via photo.
CPT Kight


End Quote
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Welcome CPT Kight.

And to all those who travel for pleasure.

They are modern Indian or maybe Pakistani replicas. Most likely They havent ever been sharp. They are good quality ornamental stuff. .

Before you become to convinced about them heres something for you to look at.

http://www.worldknives.com/product.a...=617&typeuid=1

The handles pieces are probably bone.

Perhaps the people you asked didnt wish to upset you or rock the apple cart?

Heres another website that specilises in modern Indian damascus.

http://arms.en.ec21.com/GC00018948/B...d_Daggers.html

I hope these sites & indeed this one is a usefull part of the learning curve for you.

Rick pointed out some good examples of what to look for.

But as you bought them to display it does seem they will fit your purpoise?{Isnt that a dolphin? }


Cheers,
Spiral

[erlikhan]

Others can know much better than me, I am not an Indian arms specialist at all, but as far as I have seen on ebay, and in real, general rules for today's factory produced Indian arms are:

Almost all of them have dull edges (not dulled down later, they have been just produced dull, cause otherwise it would cost higher, and would carry rsome risk of damaging the blade). They have thick sheets of blades with already dull edges.
The pattern is not hand forged but factory machine produced. All newly made ones have this kind of pattern. Antique patterns are quite different . Factory damascus flowlines can continue whole bladeway like in your pictures but hand forged ones cant do that. ( I hope more experienced friends here can confirm me or correct if I am wrong).
Most of the all-metal kind new arms have exactly this kind of silver koftgari. They are very skillful in covering everything they wish full with koftgari for really cheap costs, no problem for them.
Again, I am not an expert on the field and I cant bet on it, and hope to see comments of real Indian arms experts in the forum as I wonder if my informations are correct or not, and I hope they confirm the authenticity of your items.
regards

[erlikhan]

ahh. i see that spiral has moved before me . I hope you didnt pay high for them.

[CPT Kight]

Thank you for your help gentlemen, I have gone to the web sites that were mentioned and have indeed learned form the experience. (By the way did you know that “Crow” tastes like chicken.)
I stand corrected / educated your choice. It would appear that as with most of the things I have learned from this particular trip abroad that things are seldom as they first appear.
In your service CPT Kight.

PS I paid $150.00 for one knife $135.00 for the second and $400.00 for the sword, all within reason for my display I think.

[Yannis]

I had seen it in Afghanistan and here it is again. Masses of soldiers are good customers for "antique" swords and knifes. If these things are not enough there is always a clever man who import them from China or India.

Specially these damascus are looking damn good. Few years ago I had bought a couple of pieces.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi CPT Knight,

Don’t worry; all of us have, at one time or another bought a newer piece, although our intention was to buy an old one. Have a look for something like this one.

[wilked aka Khun Deng]

They will be wonderful mementos of a capstone event in your life. Much better than a wooden plaque with a few plastic trickets attached. Something you will able to look back at with pride over the years. What price is that worth? Take the lesson learned along with your experiences and pass it on as others before you have.

Keep your head down, bring your guys back alive and watch out for those parked cars Bro!

CW4 Dan Wilke 1/1 SFG(A)

P.S. It does taste like chicken as most of us well know

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with much of what the guys are saying, simply because these pieces are not truly antique, they seem high quality representations of swords that carry long histories from Islamic regions. You should definitely keep them as mementos of your service there, and in time they will have histories of thier own.In my opinion, aesthetically these are all very attractive pieces.
Over many years of collecting I have pieces that, while not of stellar value to other collectors, have become personal favorites because they have become lifetime mementos. The prices you paid do not seem out of line for these representations which appear reasonably well made.

I'm glad you are with us here on the forum, and hope you keep in touch with us here and join our discussions of so many fascinating edged weapons. Every day is a learning experience for all of us here as we share newly discovered weapons and information and discuss all!

In noting your being there in Iraq, I just would like to tell you how proud we are of you guys, and the incredibly magnificent job you are doing over there.I work here in an international airport and I can tell you firsthand of how true that is because I see so many of you every day, and I cannot begin to tell you the many moving moments I see and experience. I have a son and a son in law both in the Army, one will deploy in weeks with 82nd Airborne, the other with disposition pending. Our prayers are with them, and all of you, as you are all sons and daughters of all of us, be safe and God be with you.

With respect and gratitude,
Jim

[spiral]

CPT Kight, Well its a lesson weve all had at one time or another, Ive certanly bought a couple of pieces that turned out to be brand new that where sold as antiques.

I hope your safe whearever you are.


JimMcdougal. Quote..................

In noting your being there in Iraq, I just would like to tell you how proud we are of you guys, and the incredibly magnificent job you are doing over there.

end quote................................

That seems a to express an extremly politcal & contentious viewpoint for such a multi national, multi religion forum as this one Jim.

Not to mention, you are unable to speak for all members of this forum.{all though you appear to be doing so.}

Perhaps its better to just stick to well wishing & the discusian of ethnographic weapons & leave your political & religous sentiments at the door?

Spiral

[erlikhan]

...That seems a to express an extremly politcal & contentious viewpoint for such a multi national, multi religion forum as this one Jim.

Not to mention, you are unable to speak for all members of this forum.{all though you appear to be doing so.}...

Once again Spiral has moved before me.

regards

[Andrew]

As the original question posed by the thread starter has been answered, and the discussion has drifted off-topic, I'm locking this one.

If anyone would like to continue discussing the weapons here, feel free to start a new thread.