1760-80's British Cavalry Sword

Will M · 29th April 2019, 10:08 PM

An interesting British cavalry sword with a slotted four bar hilt and bun pommel. Blade is 39 inches long. The blade fullering I have seen on 1750's swords so it may be earlier?
I have not been able to find another one

fernando · 29th April 2019, 10:38 PM

Very nice, Will

.
No markings ?

Will M · 29th April 2019, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Very nice, Will

.
No markings ?

No markings

M ELEY · 30th April 2019, 12:49 AM

A very nice 4-slot hilt! The shagreen wrapping in excellent condition. I think your original dating to be correct, 1760-80. The bun pommel reminds me of those found on basket hilts from this period..

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2019, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

A very nice 4-slot hilt! The shagreen wrapping in excellent condition. I think your original dating to be correct, 1760-80. The bun pommel reminds me of those found on basket hilts from this period..

Totally agree Mark. The characteristic 'four slot' as seen from 1750s into 80s, and with this type semi basket guard an officers. the bun pommel seems more late 60s into 70s as the tall olive came in by late 70s.

The blade is very much like the 'montmorency' style favored by Wooley later in the 80s, but these were very much the straight cavalry blades for cavalry of 60s-70s. It seems this one is unmarked suggesting likely import from Germany,
and worthy of a browse through 'Nuemann' (1973).

Will M · 30th April 2019, 02:29 AM

Jim I did find one German sword with very similar blade, the wider fuller beginning further down the ricasso. Could be German imported blade with British hilt?
I have not found any portraits yet showing this type hilt, all so far have been full basket hilts.

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2019, 04:28 AM

[QUOTE=Will M]Jim I did find one German sword with very similar blade, the wider fuller beginning further down the ricasso. Could be German imported blade with British hilt?
I have not found any portraits yet showing this type hilt, all so far have been full basket hilts.[/QUOTE

Exactly Will, these are very typical cavalry blades of this period of the 18th century. To be more specific, dragoon type (later heavy cavalry) who were essentially mounted infantry who rode to battle but fought on foot. The light dragoons were hussar type cavalry with sabres.
To be sure, dragoons were not excluded from mounted action, but typically were used in campaign as noted.
Do you have "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by Neumann or 'British Basket Hilt Swords" by Mazansky?
Portraits are in many cases reliable as figures important enough to commission such a work typically used their own swords, but sundry paintings of events or groups, might not be so much the case.

In the mid 18th century many types of swords were in fact somewhat versions of Prussian military hangers for example the M1742 and 1751.
These dates were used by the artists depicting military regiments, and with swords already well in use, but the date of the paintings became the classification of the 'patterns'.

Will M · 30th April 2019, 04:47 AM

Jim yes I have those books and many more. Neumanns book has a German sword with virtually identical blade.
Seems my other 1700's sword also remains a one of a kind, pic below. Marked on the inner guard A/57 and on scabbard locket. I believe I posted it some time ago. It is marked "WYATT" on the ricasso. I thought the name would have led me to some info but not so.

Jim McDougall · 30th April 2019, 03:22 PM

Will ,I retraced those older threads re: Wyatt and it seems while there no bell ringing answers there were some pretty compelling possibilities. I think most resounding was the fact that the linear name stamp resembled others in American convention for placement on the blade (British name stamps were on back of blade, but those were makers). I think these names were outfitters or sword slippers' (often including jewelers). I think one Wyatt found was a silversmith in Philadelphia c. 1790s. These guys often handled contracts for swords for colonels of units, and as often small numbers it is not surprising that even only one might survive. This was of course before arsenals or boards of ordnance issued weapons officially.

Technically even then, the 'American' people were culturally and effectively British, and still used British arms and materials largely.

Even into the early 19th century, British sword makers still supplied swords to America. As previously noted, the absence of markings on this blade suggests a Solingen import and likely in the period also suggested by Mark Eley.

Will M · 30th April 2019, 05:36 PM

Jim are you aware of other American swords that have been marked with a troop and rack number? I can't find any references to them being marked but could well be a carry over of British standards for marking.

Jim McDougall · 1st May 2019, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

Jim are you aware of other American swords that have been marked with a troop and rack number? I can't find any references to them being marked but could well be a carry over of British standards for marking.

Hi Will
I had to find my copy of Nuemann, and went through it just as I am sure you have, just to get a baseline for talking points. I cannot say I have any great exposure to American swords beyond occasional examples over years and mostly this book.
However I would be inclined to agree that any such marking that did take place would likely follow British conventions of such marking as the colonists were of course British and probably still adhered to established methods.

These kinds of markings were of course usually 'rack numbers' for issued weapons, and typically did not apply to officers arms as they were privately obtained. There do seem to be exceptions such as Nuemann 349.S an American officers sword c. 1775, with regimental numerics on the knuckle bow.

With your 'WYATT' sword, it does seem that it must have been as noted, a number of a small contract, perhaps even for an American unit which presumably either had that numeric or possibly it was a rack number of course. It is interesting that known makers such as James Potter of New York (who seems to have made a good number of swords) placed his name in this kind of block letters just under the guard on the blade. He appears to have deviated to his name in a scalloped cartouche at one point.
With Wyatt, whoever he was, he must have simply been following the set convention of blade marking accordingly.

It would be an interesting topic for research and discussion to discover more on American military organization and command of those times during and post Revolution through unit designations as found in such markings.

29th April 2019, 10:08 PM	#1
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	1760-80's British Cavalry Sword An interesting British cavalry sword with a slotted four bar hilt and bun pommel. Blade is 39 inches long. The blade fullering I have seen on 1750's swords so it may be earlier? I have not been able to find another one Attached Images Last edited by Will M; 29th April 2019 at 10:33 PM.

30th April 2019, 04:47 AM	#8
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Jim yes I have those books and many more. Neumanns book has a German sword with virtually identical blade. Seems my other 1700's sword also remains a one of a kind, pic below. Marked on the inner guard A/57 and on scabbard locket. I believe I posted it some time ago. It is marked "WYATT" on the ricasso. I thought the name would have led me to some info but not so. Attached Images

29th April 2019, 10:38 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Very nice, Will . No markings ?

30th April 2019, 12:49 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	A very nice 4-slot hilt! The shagreen wrapping in excellent condition. I think your original dating to be correct, 1760-80. The bun pommel reminds me of those found on basket hilts from this period..

30th April 2019, 02:29 AM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Jim I did find one German sword with very similar blade, the wider fuller beginning further down the ricasso. Could be German imported blade with British hilt? I have not found any portraits yet showing this type hilt, all so far have been full basket hilts.

30th April 2019, 04:28 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	[QUOTE=Will M]Jim I did find one German sword with very similar blade, the wider fuller beginning further down the ricasso. Could be German imported blade with British hilt? I have not found any portraits yet showing this type hilt, all so far have been full basket hilts.[/QUOTE Exactly Will, these are very typical cavalry blades of this period of the 18th century. To be more specific, dragoon type (later heavy cavalry) who were essentially mounted infantry who rode to battle but fought on foot. The light dragoons were hussar type cavalry with sabres. To be sure, dragoons were not excluded from mounted action, but typically were used in campaign as noted. Do you have "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" by Neumann or 'British Basket Hilt Swords" by Mazansky? Portraits are in many cases reliable as figures important enough to commission such a work typically used their own swords, but sundry paintings of events or groups, might not be so much the case. In the mid 18th century many types of swords were in fact somewhat versions of Prussian military hangers for example the M1742 and 1751. These dates were used by the artists depicting military regiments, and with swords already well in use, but the date of the paintings became the classification of the 'patterns'.

30th April 2019, 03:22 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Will ,I retraced those older threads re: Wyatt and it seems while there no bell ringing answers there were some pretty compelling possibilities. I think most resounding was the fact that the linear name stamp resembled others in American convention for placement on the blade (British name stamps were on back of blade, but those were makers). I think these names were outfitters or sword slippers' (often including jewelers). I think one Wyatt found was a silversmith in Philadelphia c. 1790s. These guys often handled contracts for swords for colonels of units, and as often small numbers it is not surprising that even only one might survive. This was of course before arsenals or boards of ordnance issued weapons officially. Technically even then, the 'American' people were culturally and effectively British, and still used British arms and materials largely. Even into the early 19th century, British sword makers still supplied swords to America. As previously noted, the absence of markings on this blade suggests a Solingen import and likely in the period also suggested by Mark Eley.

30th April 2019, 05:36 PM	#10
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Jim are you aware of other American swords that have been marked with a troop and rack number? I can't find any references to them being marked but could well be a carry over of British standards for marking.