Antique ottoman... ehm... something

Valjhun · 4th June 2006, 03:06 PM

I think ottoman mid 19th century, maybe older. Nice piece, a somekinf of dish maybe?

Hope that someone give a clue what that is and what it was used for.

Thanks!

ariel · 4th June 2006, 03:22 PM

Just like our Moro gang calls everything they cannot define, Sundang, I shall call this Kilij

Emanuel · 4th June 2006, 04:21 PM

It looks like it has a cap, is it some sort of container? The top part looks like a shield/buckler.

S.Al-Anizi · 4th June 2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

It looks like it has a cap, is it some sort of container? The top part looks like a shield/buckler.

I agree, it does look like something thats lifted upwards using that ring on the top.

erlikhan · 6th June 2006, 02:04 PM

It can be called "sahan" which is used to bring hot meals to table,and then to serve it.Ring is to lift the cover but it can be buckler or not??I vote "not"

Valjhun · 6th June 2006, 03:07 PM

Well, I can't find any way to open the thing... no it is not a buckler.

Emanuel · 6th June 2006, 03:21 PM

On the second picture the cap looks slightly open/pulled up. Perhaps it's glued in place?
The design on the top, as seen on the first picture, looks like a buckler. The thing itself is obviously not a buckler.

erlikhan, the cover/cap looks really small, I imagine only small things were cariied in this sahan? Or does a larger part of it open?

erlikhan · 6th June 2006, 03:38 PM

manolo,I understood what you mean after I rechecked the pictures . Perhaps the joint of the top part (which is specualted as if a buckler) is somehow broken,seperated from the rest of the cover? Otherwise it would not have a pratical use of any kind at all.

Valjhun · 6th June 2006, 05:01 PM

That cap seems to be spring mounted. It goes up and down. logically, by twistening it, it should open the thing, but I cannot say. The two halfspheres are rivetted toghether and they are not coming apart, so I would exclude the food container option. The opening would be too small.

As a matter of fact, it could be manufactured from a buckler.

My guess is that it is a liquid incense burner or boiler of some kind. Did the ottomas use liquid incenses?

Zifir · 7th June 2006, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

That cap seems to be spring mounted. It goes up and down. logically, by twistening it, it should open the thing, but I cannot say. The two halfspheres are rivetted toghether and they are not coming apart, so I would exclude the food container option. The opening would be too small.

As a matter of fact, it could be manufactured from a buckler.

My guess is that it is a liquid incense burner or boiler of some kind. Did the ottomas use liquid incenses?

Yes, especially religious orders (tariqats) used incense burners in their ceremonies. In fact, they still do. It could also be for private use. My guess would be the same, it looks like an incense burner to me, but who knows.

erlikhan · 7th June 2006, 05:07 PM

Perhaps all the upper half was once the cover which was lifted by the ring and edge was fixed to the bottom part later?? If it was a burner, then it should have something to pick and carry it,most practically two facing each other in the middle edge,not? The small ring on the top would be very weak and uncomfortable to carry an oil filled burner, and as it would be expected to get hot while burning or even wet with oil, one would not wish to hold it by hand directly on the main body.In fact even if it was a sahan,it should have something to carry it comfortably but it doesnt..

Emanuel · 7th June 2006, 05:41 PM

I was starting to think that maybe this was hanged from the ceiling -hence the ring- but the decorations are restricted to the top part and it would therefore have to be visible from the top. So then it sits on something. The tight spring cap means the "container" would be fairly hermetic no? If it were an oil lamp, couldn't it be simply carried in-hand, held from the bottom? I have an oil lamp, and the burning apparatus gets hot, but the underside of the vessel itself does not.
It's no good for pouring liquids, it's no good for storing/serving foodstuffs, short of it being a gong or musical instrument I can't see what it can be besides an incense/oil burner.

Regards,
Emanuel

Rick · 7th June 2006, 09:25 PM

Are the top and bottom halves made from different metals ?
It looks to me like the bottom is made from copper .
If this is the case then this item was probably meant to be heated .
Also there is what looks like a key cut out on the opening ; have you tried turning the top itself or the ring to see if there is a tab that would line up with the keyhole ?

Tim Simmons · 7th June 2006, 09:45 PM

I think this is a bed warmer, using hot water like a hot water bottle, where as European bed warmers used coals and all that servant stuff, a hot pan on a stick. You can find stoneware hot water bottles but I do not think this area has a history of stoneware ceramics, some very fine earthenware mind, I might be horribly wrong.

Titus Pullo · 8th June 2006, 05:30 AM

Gorgeous!

not2sharp · 8th June 2006, 06:03 AM

OK, it's a 18th century movie prop for an Indian verison of a Martain UFO.

Just hang it by a string and play this theme music:

http://pages.prodigy.net/ehammer/ufoscare.mid

n2s

ham · 8th June 2006, 06:05 AM

Gentlemen,

Erlikhan is quite literally half right-- tabiki sahandir-- it is a food cover. The rest is cobbled up. Look at the difference in color between top and bottom. The applied brass edge was never intended to open. It is a bazaar curio, the production of which was prompted by a tourist demand for 'authentic' items... even when they had no idea what they were.

Ham

Rather · 8th June 2006, 10:53 AM

I also think that is is a hot water bottle to warm up the bed. Here is a old German version, made of copper, as a reference. It also has a ring to carry the bottle, when it's hot.

Tim Simmons · 8th June 2006, 07:30 PM

Far out!!

fernando · 8th June 2006, 09:55 PM

How much of an openning vent do you get when you pull up that springed cap ... any at all ? as if this would define whether it is for pouring in (whatever) or breathing out (whatever) ... or both.

Mark · 8th June 2006, 10:10 PM

Some questions:

1) Is the cylinder in the background part of it? It looks like a stand for something. In any event, the object looks like it was made to sit on/in something that hid the lower part.

2) Is it even water (or oil) tight? That would be a good clue about whether it is a hot water bottle of some sort.

3) Ham sounds pretty sure it is a tabiki sahandir, or a modified one at any rate, and Rick suggested that the top and bottom could have been stuck together later. Is this the answer?

4) I'm still not clear what the "springed mounted" cap is. Can you pull it up far enough to get a look inside, or is how it looks in the photo as far out as it goes? If it is, the fact that it comes out crookedly like that could well be because of a tab that could be turned ro line up with the slot in the body & permit the whole cap to come out, as again Rick suggested.

5) What is it made out of? It looks like copper or maybe bronze in the photos, with brass used in the band around the equator of the thing.

6) Any evidence on the bottom that it was exposed to flame, or at least heat?

It looks nice, whatever it is. Maybe it is just a "thing."

Valjhun · 9th June 2006, 09:20 AM

Hi,

Tim, Rather, I've managed to open it and I believe it to be really a bed warmer! Definetly something one would put water into, 'cos it is quite heavily "laquered" in the inside, and yes, it is water tight.

No, Mark, that cylinder is a qajar candle holder http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=qajar

It is not copper made however, white metal with great patina!

No evidence of heating the bottom.

Thank to all of you, for solving that mistery!

4th June 2006, 03:06 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Antique ottoman... ehm... something I think ottoman mid 19th century, maybe older. Nice piece, a somekinf of dish maybe? Hope that someone give a clue what that is and what it was used for. Thanks! Attached Images

8th June 2006, 10:53 AM	#18
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	I also think that is is a hot water bottle to warm up the bed. Here is a old German version, made of copper, as a reference. It also has a ring to carry the bottle, when it's hot. Attached Images

4th June 2006, 03:22 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just like our Moro gang calls everything they cannot define, Sundang, I shall call this Kilij

4th June 2006, 04:21 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	It looks like it has a cap, is it some sort of container? The top part looks like a shield/buckler.

6th June 2006, 02:04 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	It can be called "sahan" which is used to bring hot meals to table,and then to serve it.Ring is to lift the cover but it can be buckler or not??I vote "not"

6th June 2006, 03:07 PM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well, I can't find any way to open the thing... no it is not a buckler.

6th June 2006, 03:21 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	On the second picture the cap looks slightly open/pulled up. Perhaps it's glued in place? The design on the top, as seen on the first picture, looks like a buckler. The thing itself is obviously not a buckler. erlikhan, the cover/cap looks really small, I imagine only small things were cariied in this sahan? Or does a larger part of it open?

6th June 2006, 03:38 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	manolo,I understood what you mean after I rechecked the pictures . Perhaps the joint of the top part (which is specualted as if a buckler) is somehow broken,seperated from the rest of the cover? Otherwise it would not have a pratical use of any kind at all.

6th June 2006, 05:01 PM	#9
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	That cap seems to be spring mounted. It goes up and down. logically, by twistening it, it should open the thing, but I cannot say. The two halfspheres are rivetted toghether and they are not coming apart, so I would exclude the food container option. The opening would be too small. As a matter of fact, it could be manufactured from a buckler. My guess is that it is a liquid incense burner or boiler of some kind. Did the ottomas use liquid incenses?

7th June 2006, 05:07 PM	#11
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Perhaps all the upper half was once the cover which was lifted by the ring and edge was fixed to the bottom part later?? If it was a burner, then it should have something to pick and carry it,most practically two facing each other in the middle edge,not? The small ring on the top would be very weak and uncomfortable to carry an oil filled burner, and as it would be expected to get hot while burning or even wet with oil, one would not wish to hold it by hand directly on the main body.In fact even if it was a sahan,it should have something to carry it comfortably but it doesnt..

7th June 2006, 05:41 PM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I was starting to think that maybe this was hanged from the ceiling -hence the ring- but the decorations are restricted to the top part and it would therefore have to be visible from the top. So then it sits on something. The tight spring cap means the "container" would be fairly hermetic no? If it were an oil lamp, couldn't it be simply carried in-hand, held from the bottom? I have an oil lamp, and the burning apparatus gets hot, but the underside of the vessel itself does not. It's no good for pouring liquids, it's no good for storing/serving foodstuffs, short of it being a gong or musical instrument I can't see what it can be besides an incense/oil burner. Regards, Emanuel

7th June 2006, 09:25 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,287	Are the top and bottom halves made from different metals ? It looks to me like the bottom is made from copper . If this is the case then this item was probably meant to be heated . Also there is what looks like a key cut out on the opening ; have you tried turning the top itself or the ring to see if there is a tab that would line up with the keyhole ?

7th June 2006, 09:45 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,776	I think this is a bed warmer, using hot water like a hot water bottle, where as European bed warmers used coals and all that servant stuff, a hot pan on a stick. You can find stoneware hot water bottles but I do not think this area has a history of stoneware ceramics, some very fine earthenware mind, I might be horribly wrong.

8th June 2006, 05:30 AM	#15
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Gorgeous!

8th June 2006, 06:03 AM	#16
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	OK, it's a 18th century movie prop for an Indian verison of a Martain UFO. Just hang it by a string and play this theme music: http://pages.prodigy.net/ehammer/ufoscare.mid n2s

8th June 2006, 06:05 AM	#17
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, Erlikhan is quite literally half right-- tabiki sahandir-- it is a food cover. The rest is cobbled up. Look at the difference in color between top and bottom. The applied brass edge was never intended to open. It is a bazaar curio, the production of which was prompted by a tourist demand for 'authentic' items... even when they had no idea what they were. Ham

8th June 2006, 07:30 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,776	Far out!!

8th June 2006, 09:55 PM	#20
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	How much of an openning vent do you get when you pull up that springed cap ... any at all ? as if this would define whether it is for pouring in (whatever) or breathing out (whatever) ... or both.

8th June 2006, 10:10 PM	#21
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Some questions: 1) Is the cylinder in the background part of it? It looks like a stand for something. In any event, the object looks like it was made to sit on/in something that hid the lower part. 2) Is it even water (or oil) tight? That would be a good clue about whether it is a hot water bottle of some sort. 3) Ham sounds pretty sure it is a tabiki sahandir, or a modified one at any rate, and Rick suggested that the top and bottom could have been stuck together later. Is this the answer? 4) I'm still not clear what the "springed mounted" cap is. Can you pull it up far enough to get a look inside, or is how it looks in the photo as far out as it goes? If it is, the fact that it comes out crookedly like that could well be because of a tab that could be turned ro line up with the slot in the body & permit the whole cap to come out, as again Rick suggested. 5) What is it made out of? It looks like copper or maybe bronze in the photos, with brass used in the band around the equator of the thing. 6) Any evidence on the bottom that it was exposed to flame, or at least heat? It looks nice, whatever it is. Maybe it is just a "thing."

9th June 2006, 09:20 AM	#22
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Hi, Tim, Rather, I've managed to open it and I believe it to be really a bed warmer! Definetly something one would put water into, 'cos it is quite heavily "laquered" in the inside, and yes, it is water tight. No, Mark, that cylinder is a qajar candle holder http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=qajar It is not copper made however, white metal with great patina! No evidence of heating the bottom. Thank to all of you, for solving that mistery!