Peninsular or Sumatra?

VVV · 19th June 2011, 02:49 PM

Here is a keris were the seller and I don't agree on the possible origin.
I would appreciate your comments and ideas on this one too.

Michael

Sajen · 19th June 2011, 03:07 PM

Hello Michael,

beautiful keris although I don't think that the blade is original to the sheath IMHO. But in my humble opinion all look very Peninsula to my eyes, special hilt, pendokok and sheath. By the blade I am unsure.

Best regards,

Detlef

Alam Shah · 19th June 2011, 04:35 PM

Hi Michael,

Imho, the hilt, hilt cup and sheath are Peninsular made, probably Kelantan. The blade, I'm not sure. During my last visit to Kelantan, months ago, I've seen newer blades in this form. The hilt, emulating Palembang style but probably made in Malaysia. Seen quite a few, in private collections made by local craftsmen, old and new..

BluErf · 19th June 2011, 04:47 PM

It's a N Malay interpretation of a Sumatran keris.

Nice catch, Michael.

VVV · 19th June 2011, 06:16 PM

Thanks all so far,

Then I was wrong because I thought the hilt was a poorly made (in) Palembang.
The blade seems a bit tricky?

Michael

David · 19th June 2011, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Then I was wrong because I thought the hilt was a poorly made (in) Palembang.

Michael, even out of focus i am having a hard time accepting your hilt as "poorly made"...

Sajen · 19th June 2011, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Michael, even out of focus i am having a hard time accepting your hilt as "poorly made"...

Agree with David! When you don't like the hilt send it to me Michael!!

I think it's hippo ivory, can you confirm this?

Regards,

Detlef

Marcokeris · 19th June 2011, 08:31 PM

All very very nice. The blade is :

asomotif · 19th June 2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I thought the hilt was a poorly made (in) Palembang.

I am with David and Detlef.
Of course there are Palembang hilts that are carved much finer. But This hilt is very nice and it fits the ensemble quite well.

Love the pendokok.

Best regards,
Willem

DAHenkel · 20th June 2011, 01:00 AM

Kelantan or Terengganu dating to around 1920 - 1940. There was a craze in those days for innovation and hybrid styles abound. The Palembang style seems to have been particularly influential. The 'air-tangan' of the piece though is unmistakably Peninsular - so is the sheath, which is the debek style and very Kelantanese. In these days smallish keris for "formal" attire were popular and even today in Kota Bahru they call them keris selit because the fit just nicely into the waist of your sarong.

Super nice piece and absolutely all original. Another nice catch Michael...

Sajen · 20th June 2011, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Kelantan or Terengganu dating to around 1920 - 1940. There was a craze in those days for innovation and hybrid styles abound. The Palembang style seems to have been particularly influential. The 'air-tangan' of the piece though is unmistakably Peninsular - so is the sheath, which is the debek style and very Kelantanese. In these days smallish keris for "formal" attire were popular and even today in Kota Bahru they call them keris selit because the fit just nicely into the waist of your sarong.

Super nice piece and absolutely all original. Another nice catch Michael...

Hello Dave,

is it normal that the blade stick out so much from the sarung?

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 20th June 2011, 03:33 AM

I'm not sure that the scabbard is original to the blade......

VVV · 20th June 2011, 10:24 AM

W, D&D, I just ment that it wasn't the same quality of carving as those found in Palembang. So I will keep it some more.

Thanks Dave for the additional information.
Do you have any ideas about the blade?
I agree that it is suspicious that the ganja doesn't fit at all the scabbard.

Michael

Gustav · 20th June 2011, 01:24 PM

I have an impression, the 20 cent. Peninsular keris have the gonjo more often completely out of sampir, it seems to be almost like a sort of proud extravagance.

The ensemble looks genuine to me.

DAHenkel · 20th June 2011, 03:07 PM

Well from the pictures at least the fit looks more or less good although a bit loose. Its possible there's a bit of crud down in the bottom of the batang that's keeping it from setting down quite perfectly. Might be worth a little bit of digging if you have the right tools for the job. could also just be shrinkage/warping. Again if you have a tool that will serve you might be able to get it to set down just a bit more nicely...

The blade is clearly late-ish and not quite as refined as they were in the heyday of the mid-late 19th c but its consistent with N.E. Peninsular work of the period.

VVV · 20th June 2011, 05:46 PM

Yes, it's quite usual with the blade sitting higher on Sumatran and Peninsular Malay blades. But if you look from the top the ganja isn't even close to fit.
Usually it's more that the scabbards are a bit tight or maybe have shrunk in Europe.
Well, I like it anyway and thanks for the additional information on the blade.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 21st June 2011, 12:11 AM

The custom of sitting a blade high in the scabbard is not confined to Peninsula blades, it was also practiced in old Balinese dress, and there seems to be some indication that it may also have been practiced in early Jawa.

However, in all examples I have seen, no matter where from, the line of the top of the gonjo parallels the line of the top of the scabbard, and it is only the gonjo, or even part of the gonjo that stands proud.

If this scabbard was indeed made for this blade, I am inclined to Dave Henckel's view, that proper entry of the blade could be being hindered by an obstruction in the gandar.

VVV · 22nd June 2011, 08:36 AM

Thanks Alan,

Interesting that in the old days the keris was sitting high in those regions too.
Maybe because it's easier to draw it in case the scabbard is tight?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 22nd June 2011, 09:53 AM

Possibly.

19th June 2011, 02:49 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Peninsular or Sumatra? Here is a keris were the seller and I don't agree on the possible origin. I would appreciate your comments and ideas on this one too. Michael Attached Images

19th June 2011, 04:35 PM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Michael, Imho, the hilt, hilt cup and sheath are Peninsular made, probably Kelantan. The blade, I'm not sure. During my last visit to Kelantan, months ago, I've seen newer blades in this form. The hilt, emulating Palembang style but probably made in Malaysia. Seen quite a few, in private collections made by local craftsmen, old and new.. Last edited by Alam Shah; 20th June 2011 at 05:15 AM. Reason: spelling

19th June 2011, 03:07 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Michael, beautiful keris although I don't think that the blade is original to the sheath IMHO. But in my humble opinion all look very Peninsula to my eyes, special hilt, pendokok and sheath. By the blade I am unsure. Best regards, Detlef

19th June 2011, 04:47 PM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	It's a N Malay interpretation of a Sumatran keris. Nice catch, Michael.

19th June 2011, 06:16 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks all so far, Then I was wrong because I thought the hilt was a poorly made (in) Palembang. The blade seems a bit tricky? Michael

19th June 2011, 08:31 PM	#8
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	All very very nice. The blade is :

20th June 2011, 01:00 AM	#10
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Kelantan or Terengganu dating to around 1920 - 1940. There was a craze in those days for innovation and hybrid styles abound. The Palembang style seems to have been particularly influential. The 'air-tangan' of the piece though is unmistakably Peninsular - so is the sheath, which is the debek style and very Kelantanese. In these days smallish keris for "formal" attire were popular and even today in Kota Bahru they call them keris selit because the fit just nicely into the waist of your sarong. Super nice piece and absolutely all original. Another nice catch Michael...

20th June 2011, 03:33 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I'm not sure that the scabbard is original to the blade......

20th June 2011, 10:24 AM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	W, D&D, I just ment that it wasn't the same quality of carving as those found in Palembang. So I will keep it some more. Thanks Dave for the additional information. Do you have any ideas about the blade? I agree that it is suspicious that the ganja doesn't fit at all the scabbard. Michael

20th June 2011, 01:24 PM	#14
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	I have an impression, the 20 cent. Peninsular keris have the gonjo more often completely out of sampir, it seems to be almost like a sort of proud extravagance. The ensemble looks genuine to me.

20th June 2011, 03:07 PM	#15
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Well from the pictures at least the fit looks more or less good although a bit loose. Its possible there's a bit of crud down in the bottom of the batang that's keeping it from setting down quite perfectly. Might be worth a little bit of digging if you have the right tools for the job. could also just be shrinkage/warping. Again if you have a tool that will serve you might be able to get it to set down just a bit more nicely... The blade is clearly late-ish and not quite as refined as they were in the heyday of the mid-late 19th c but its consistent with N.E. Peninsular work of the period.

20th June 2011, 05:46 PM	#16
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes, it's quite usual with the blade sitting higher on Sumatran and Peninsular Malay blades. But if you look from the top the ganja isn't even close to fit. Usually it's more that the scabbards are a bit tight or maybe have shrunk in Europe. Well, I like it anyway and thanks for the additional information on the blade. Michael

21st June 2011, 12:11 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	The custom of sitting a blade high in the scabbard is not confined to Peninsula blades, it was also practiced in old Balinese dress, and there seems to be some indication that it may also have been practiced in early Jawa. However, in all examples I have seen, no matter where from, the line of the top of the gonjo parallels the line of the top of the scabbard, and it is only the gonjo, or even part of the gonjo that stands proud. If this scabbard was indeed made for this blade, I am inclined to Dave Henckel's view, that proper entry of the blade could be being hindered by an obstruction in the gandar.

22nd June 2011, 08:36 AM	#18
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Alan, Interesting that in the old days the keris was sitting high in those regions too. Maybe because it's easier to draw it in case the scabbard is tight? Michael

22nd June 2011, 09:53 AM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Possibly.