A Spanish escopeta

fernando · 4th February 2010, 06:18 PM

Very good condition, not many miles away from excelent; no repairs, no gaps, no loosenesses ... only a bit too cleaned (polished?), specially at the barrel front section, possibly due to the previous owner wishing to erase some pitting... not sure.
The patilha (Miquelete) lock, in the genuine late percussion version; dated 1840.
The barrel and lock bear the punctions of M Vicaº (Vicario) Rodriguez and the trigger guard bear those of Juan Rodriguez.
The caps box has inscribed Juan y Hermano en Cortegana, which confirms the gunsmiths were two brothers; Cortegana is in the Huelva area.
The caliber is around 18 mm; i am not certain if at this stage you could already call it a 12 gauge; can someone enlighten me?
The wooden ram rod could be the original ... a little bit short, though.
Traditional stock a la Catalana (or boot).
There is a threaded hole on the counter plate; missing some kind of ring ... i wouldn't say a hook. I will have to figure out what it was.
Would anyone care for coments?
Thanks a lot
Fernando

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fernando · 4th February 2010, 06:19 PM

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M ELEY · 4th February 2010, 10:52 PM

Absolutely beautiful piece, Fernando! Where did you find such an intact piece! When I first saw that threaded hole, I thought perhaps there might be one on the other side (as in, mounted with a swivel base), but not the case. I am excited to hear what the experts have to say about this fantastic percussion piece. Congrats again!

fernando · 5th February 2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Absolutely beautiful piece, Fernando! Where did you find such an intact piece! When I first saw that threaded hole, I thought perhaps there might be one on the other side (as in, mounted with a swivel base), but not the case. I am excited to hear what the experts have to say about this fantastic percussion piece. Congrats again!

Thank you Mark,
It must be some kind of suspension device, although this intrigues me, as such characteristic would better fit shorter items, like pistols or short blunderbusses and carbines.
This escopeta measures 1,25 mt (1ft 2"); if you held it from the belt by the spot where the threaded hole is, it would nearly touch the ground. And this is no cavalry weapon, i would say?
The truth is that this shotgun has no hanging belt, which is unusual. Maybe this hipothetical ring would do the job ... but how?

.
Let them experts pop up and tell us something about that

Fernando

celtan · 5th February 2010, 07:37 PM

Nando,

That's just what I thought. Yesterday I received a book.with copious illustrations of Napoleonic french soldiers, many of whom were dragoons.

They were depicted as carrying a carbine hanging from a shoulder belt, or even from the saddle's horn, attached to the gun in the same area yours has that hole. So I guess it was probably a ring, to carry the carbine at the ready while hunting from a horse.

BTW, the flintlock continued to be made and used in Spain until ~ 1850, never mind the more modern Percussion-locks.

Beautiful piece, nonetheless!

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you Mark,
It must be some kind of suspension device, although this intrigues me, as such characteristic would better fit shorter items, like pistols or short blunderbusses and carbines.
This escopeta measures 1,25 mt (1ft 2"); if you held it from the belt by the spot where the threaded hole is, it would nearly touch the ground. And this is no cavalry weapon, i would say?
The truth is that this shotgun has no hanging belt, which is unusual. Maybe this hipothetical ring would do the job ... but how?

.
Let them experts pop up and tell us something about that

Fernando

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 06:19 AM

http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria

Check out lot #185 on pg 78-79. It resembles Fernando's very much. Interestingly, I thought these were percussion cap the first time I saw one. This one dates to the 18th c.?

I just love this catalog of Native American/Span colonial stuff-

Norman McCormick · 4th February 2010, 11:47 PM

Hi Fernando,
I see you've now changed to miniature calibre firearms

. On a more serious note, that is really a very nice piece! I'm not up on older firearms but the overall shape looks to be of an earlier form than 1840? I have the perfect blank shape on my wall should you ever tire of looking at it

.
My Regards,
Norman.

celtan · 5th February 2010, 03:11 AM

A Miguelete in 1840? By this time, most Spain had switched to the French lock.

How about an 18th C reworked Flintlock, converted to Percussion ?

Who was Juan Rodriguez?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
I see you've now changed to miniature calibre firearms

. On a more serious note, that is really a very nice piece! I'm not up on older firearms but the overall shape looks to be of an earlier form than 1840? I have the perfect blank shape on my wall should you ever tire of looking at it

.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 5th February 2010, 06:03 PM

Hola Manolin

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

... A Miguelete in 1840? By this time, most Spain had switched to the French lock ... How about an 18th C reworked Flintlock, converted to Percussion ? ...

I doubt it.
I had already heard in the grapevines that the caplock Miqueletes remained in use up to the advent of the catridge (1835). Considering this in a general manner, i wouldn't be surprised that some provincial gunsmith still made some pecimens in 1840, be it for nostalgic reasons from either himself or an exquisite customer.
I guess that, in weapons as also in other technologies, the introduction of new techniques doesn't necessarily demobilize the previous ones... look at me, so literate

.
Amazingly the last flintlock weapon made in Portugal was the copy of the New Land Pattern pistol, produced in the Army Arsenal, dated 1846.

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

...Who was Juan Rodriguez? ...

Good question; i was expecting you to tell me

.
It appears that gunsmiths (or other craftsmen) only come listed if they work in the country capitals or similar metropolis; who would know a couple 'handy' brothers from a Huelva little village.
But i am not particulary sad for that; at least the piece is not marked with a false name, 'borrowed' from a famous master, like so often happens.
Obviously i would love to their name somewhere

.
Fernando

fernando · 5th February 2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
I see you've now changed to miniature calibre firearms

. On a more serious note, that is really a very nice piece! I'm not up on older firearms but the overall shape looks to be of an earlier form than 1840? I have the perfect blank shape on my wall should you ever tire of looking at it

.
My Regards,
Norman.

-

4th February 2010, 06:19 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	. Attached Images

11th February 2010, 06:19 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Frontier escopeta http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria Check out lot #185 on pg 78-79. It resembles Fernando's very much. Interestingly, I thought these were percussion cap the first time I saw one. This one dates to the 18th c.? I just love this catalog of Native American/Span colonial stuff-

4th February 2010, 06:18 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A Spanish escopeta Very good condition, not many miles away from excelent; no repairs, no gaps, no loosenesses ... only a bit too cleaned (polished?), specially at the barrel front section, possibly due to the previous owner wishing to erase some pitting... not sure. The patilha (Miquelete) lock, in the genuine late percussion version; dated 1840. The barrel and lock bear the punctions of M Vicaº (Vicario) Rodriguez and the trigger guard bear those of Juan Rodriguez. The caps box has inscribed Juan y Hermano en Cortegana, which confirms the gunsmiths were two brothers; Cortegana is in the Huelva area. The caliber is around 18 mm; i am not certain if at this stage you could already call it a 12 gauge; can someone enlighten me? The wooden ram rod could be the original ... a little bit short, though. Traditional stock a la Catalana (or boot). There is a threaded hole on the counter plate; missing some kind of ring ... i wouldn't say a hook. I will have to figure out what it was. Would anyone care for coments? Thanks a lot Fernando . Attached Images

4th February 2010, 10:52 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Absolutely beautiful piece, Fernando! Where did you find such an intact piece! When I first saw that threaded hole, I thought perhaps there might be one on the other side (as in, mounted with a swivel base), but not the case. I am excited to hear what the experts have to say about this fantastic percussion piece. Congrats again!

4th February 2010, 11:47 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Fernando, I see you've now changed to miniature calibre firearms . On a more serious note, that is really a very nice piece! I'm not up on older firearms but the overall shape looks to be of an earlier form than 1840? I have the perfect blank shape on my wall should you ever tire of looking at it . My Regards, Norman.