Flintlock pistol for ID

fernando · 8th January 2019, 05:52 PM

A friend of a friend acquired this pistol the other day in a local (USA) auction.
I already had the opinion of someone who gave me a general idea of what it is, but have promised to widen the query to a more vast audience, in case some of you guys are familiar with it, or have even seen any example close to it.
The hint was that it would be of French influence, perhaps a version made by a German smith ?
Thank you in advance.

.

fernando · 8th January 2019, 05:53 PM

A couple more ...

corrado26 · 8th January 2019, 06:25 PM

I think this is a German pistol made around 1750/70. The backward curl at the trigger, the form of the sideplate and the pronounced butt are typical. The pistol shows no signature of the gunsmith what could be a sign that the maker has been working at the court of a more or less highly ranked noble man. In this case a signature was avoidable because the orderer knew who made the pistol.
corrado26

fernando · 9th January 2019, 12:52 PM

Good shot Udo; thank you so much. Your points look consistent with my previous information, namely age and pronounced butt. To remind however that, the back curled trigger also appears in XVIII century guns of other provenances. I have Portuguese ans Spanish with such detail.
Thanks again.

fernando · 9th January 2019, 12:53 PM

No more opinions, Gentlemen ?

Pukka Bundook · 9th January 2019, 05:49 PM

No expert here, but I think Corrado has nailed it.
It appears Germanic to me, and from the period as Corrado says.
What makes me say this, is the un-engraved brass furniture. There was a period in the mid and later 18th C where German arms were largely not engraved, although the castings were ideally suited to such decoration.
I'd also say the relief carving also appears Germanic, as does the muzzle work.
A very nice pistol!

R.

fernando · 9th January 2019, 06:24 PM

Thanks much you for your input, Richard

.

fernando · 10th January 2019, 02:28 PM

For your appreciation a pair of silver decorated pistols, tagged as French.
We may observe the butt style, the back curled trigger, the side plate shape, the barrel top section and its meeting the tang.

.

Pukka Bundook · 10th January 2019, 03:15 PM

Hello Fernando my friend,

I think the pistols may be miss-labeled, as the engraving and appearance say German, more actually, the engraved mounts are Very typical of arms made in the Carlsbad area of Bohemia.

Also the conversion to percussion is typical of Germanic work.

I believe I have seen the exact same lock and sideplate design from that area.
The French engraver's pattern books were widely used in Europe and even in Britain, but these designs I do not think show up in the French pattern books.
The photos are not as clear as I would like, and a good photo of theguards would help a lot.

I will wait now and see what others say!

V nice pistols, BTW.

Richard.

Fernando K · 10th January 2019, 03:31 PM

Dear namesake

Mmmmm ....... In any case ... dubious attribution. The percussion system seems to be original, not a flint conversion, and in that case, the French pistols have an oval as an end of the hilt, following the designs of the time of the first empire. In addition, hunting scenes are not usual during this period in France, except for shotguns and hunting rifles. In all cases, the trigger closure and the shape of the butt cap seem to be mimics of a previous design.

A hug

corrado26 · 10th January 2019, 07:24 PM

This pair is certainly not French made. For me these are typical south German or Bohemian flintlock pistols converted to percussion around 1830. They cannot originally be percussion pistols because thex differ widely from the rest of the locks and over that the whole style of the pistols shows charakteristic details of the Rokoko about 1760/70.
corrado26

fernando · 10th January 2019, 07:37 PM

This friend of my friend has brought further pictures with some parts dismounted and the result of his on investigation.
He has found online a pistol that, apart from being a more elaborated example, features a few characteristics that tend to make him realize that it was made by the same maker. Such is Wenzl Böhm in Eger (Hungary) circa 1740.The similarities are the barrel with a mid ridge, the spider site and the fanned stepping down at the breech. The flintlock is also similar and the pins holding the barrel are nearly in the same place as his example. A relief carving above the lock also appears to be made in the same style.

So Gentlemen, do we have a winner ?

,

DMC777 · 11th January 2019, 05:57 PM

Hello everyone,
I'm the friend of a friend mentioned. I would also like to add that I'm pretty confident that the relief carvings on the flintlock represent a Hungarian Lynx flanked by two crouching rabbits. It's my understanding that Gere, Hungary was well known in the day for it's master gun makers.

8th January 2019, 05:52 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Flintlock pistol for ID A friend of a friend acquired this pistol the other day in a local (USA) auction. I already had the opinion of someone who gave me a general idea of what it is, but have promised to widen the query to a more vast audience, in case some of you guys are familiar with it, or have even seen any example close to it. The hint was that it would be of French influence, perhaps a version made by a German smith ? Thank you in advance. . Attached Images

8th January 2019, 05:53 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A couple more ... Attached Images

10th January 2019, 02:28 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Undeniable French root ... For your appreciation a pair of silver decorated pistols, tagged as French. We may observe the butt style, the back curled trigger, the side plate shape, the barrel top section and its meeting the tang. . Attached Images

10th January 2019, 07:37 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This friend of my friend has brought further pictures with some parts dismounted and the result of his on investigation. He has found online a pistol that, apart from being a more elaborated example, features a few characteristics that tend to make him realize that it was made by the same maker. Such is Wenzl Böhm in Eger (Hungary) circa 1740.The similarities are the barrel with a mid ridge, the spider site and the fanned stepping down at the breech. The flintlock is also similar and the pins holding the barrel are nearly in the same place as his example. A relief carving above the lock also appears to be made in the same style. So Gentlemen, do we have a winner ? , Attached Images

11th January 2019, 05:57 PM	#13
DMC777 Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 1	FLintlock identification Hello everyone, I'm the friend of a friend mentioned. I would also like to add that I'm pretty confident that the relief carvings on the flintlock represent a Hungarian Lynx flanked by two crouching rabbits. It's my understanding that Gere, Hungary was well known in the day for it's master gun makers.

8th January 2019, 06:25 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	I think this is a German pistol made around 1750/70. The backward curl at the trigger, the form of the sideplate and the pronounced butt are typical. The pistol shows no signature of the gunsmith what could be a sign that the maker has been working at the court of a more or less highly ranked noble man. In this case a signature was avoidable because the orderer knew who made the pistol. corrado26

9th January 2019, 12:52 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Good shot Udo; thank you so much. Your points look consistent with my previous information, namely age and pronounced butt. To remind however that, the back curled trigger also appears in XVIII century guns of other provenances. I have Portuguese ans Spanish with such detail. Thanks again.

9th January 2019, 12:53 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No more opinions, Gentlemen ?

9th January 2019, 05:49 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	No expert here, but I think Corrado has nailed it. It appears Germanic to me, and from the period as Corrado says. What makes me say this, is the un-engraved brass furniture. There was a period in the mid and later 18th C where German arms were largely not engraved, although the castings were ideally suited to such decoration. I'd also say the relief carving also appears Germanic, as does the muzzle work. A very nice pistol! R.

9th January 2019, 06:24 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks much you for your input, Richard .

10th January 2019, 03:15 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Hello Fernando my friend, I think the pistols may be miss-labeled, as the engraving and appearance say German, more actually, the engraved mounts are Very typical of arms made in the Carlsbad area of Bohemia. Also the conversion to percussion is typical of Germanic work. I believe I have seen the exact same lock and sideplate design from that area. The French engraver's pattern books were widely used in Europe and even in Britain, but these designs I do not think show up in the French pattern books. The photos are not as clear as I would like, and a good photo of theguards would help a lot. I will wait now and see what others say! V nice pistols, BTW. Richard.

10th January 2019, 03:31 PM	#10
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Dear namesake Mmmmm ....... In any case ... dubious attribution. The percussion system seems to be original, not a flint conversion, and in that case, the French pistols have an oval as an end of the hilt, following the designs of the time of the first empire. In addition, hunting scenes are not usual during this period in France, except for shotguns and hunting rifles. In all cases, the trigger closure and the shape of the butt cap seem to be mimics of a previous design. A hug

10th January 2019, 07:24 PM	#11
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	This pair is certainly not French made. For me these are typical south German or Bohemian flintlock pistols converted to percussion around 1830. They cannot originally be percussion pistols because thex differ widely from the rest of the locks and over that the whole style of the pistols shows charakteristic details of the Rokoko about 1760/70. corrado26