Owners of takouba and kaskara - a little help needed!

Iain · 17th November 2012, 04:28 PM

Hi guys,

I'm chasing down a potential tidbit of info related to the half moon (dukari) marks.

Very specifically I am looking for examples of triple fullered blades where the half moons are facing each other - as in the picture I am attaching.

Many thanks if others could post similar examples!

Iain

Lew · 17th November 2012, 10:44 PM

Iain

As requested

.

regihis · 18th November 2012, 01:44 AM

ariel · 18th November 2012, 01:29 PM

That one doesn't seem to apply.
Iain specifically requested examples of the "missionary position":-)

Iain · 18th November 2012, 04:28 PM

Thanks Lew for posting your kaskara - exactly what I was interested to see.

The reason I asked folks to show examples was because I ran across a reference in "Publications of the Princeton Expedition to Abyssinia" from 1910 regarding sword marks and their associated local value.

Quote:

1. The "Rhinoceros-hoof Mahawl" is valuable. Its marks
are: three lines, a span long, above its pommel, and two
crescents with their openings facing each other, and also
the hoof of a rhinoceros. It is costly.

2. The "Running-stream Mahawl" however, has the lines
reaching to its point; it is cheap. Or, again, if one of the
lines is a little longer, and the two others are shorter, and
if the crescents face outward, it is [also] called the "Running-
stream Mahawl, and it is of little value, too.

Essentially it would seem that if the crescents face each other the value of the sword is higher - and thus likely to mean better steel etc.

I was intrigued by this because the only example I had pass through my hands with the crescents facing each other was an older Tuareg piece that had exceptional steel quality. And one I thought had a decent chance to be European.

So I thought it was worth seeing what else would turn up among the forums members.

regihis · 18th November 2012, 05:16 PM

Hello Iain,
The analysis of the swords using the literature is wonderful. It would be a fantastic complement the use of chemical analyzes and comparisons. There is already such a study?

Iain · 18th November 2012, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regihis

Hello Iain,
The analysis of the swords using the literature is wonderful. It would be a fantastic complement the use of chemical analyzes and comparisons. There is already such a study?

Hi Regihis,

Unfortunately not to my knowledge. I believe such techniques would require material samples from the blades. Personally I am not willing to sacrifice anything in my collection like that.

As far as I know - there is not an exact test for dating iron. However it is possible to analyse the composition of iron, such as the carbon content.

However if someone knows of lab tests that could accomplish this without somewhat destructive sampling required... I would be extremely happy to hear about it!

regihis · 18th November 2012, 05:52 PM

A METALLURGICAL STUDY OF SOME VIKING SWORDS

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...wnload/218/222

Iain · 18th November 2012, 06:35 PM

Hi Regihis,

I am familiar with this study. Unfortunately, as far as I know this requires a cross section of the blade.

This is the somewhat invasive method I was referring to before.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th December 2012, 09:14 AM

Salaams Iain see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453 for a couple of moons.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Iain · 13th December 2012, 09:53 AM

Hi Ibrahiim,

I'm well aware of the thread.

There's one piece in the thread posted by Fernando, that fits my criteria. A German executioner's sword. One of the reasons I started this thread.

But thanks for linking it!

Martin Lubojacky · 13th December 2012, 08:00 PM

Hi Iain,
crescents on this sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16298 does not face each other, but I would say they were "stamped in Europe" and also the blade is both well flexible, with nice thick profile and I would say hard, too.....

Iain · 14th December 2012, 09:51 AM

Hi Martin,

Thanks for linking your example. I agree the blade looks very high quality.

I have started to suspect almost all half moon marks I encounter though. It seems that a blade being European is no indication the stamps are.

I have seen several examples now of thuluth blades where the half moon stamps are well struck, the blades are European, but the half moons are applied after the thuluth. Unless makers like Clauberg were doing the thuluth themselves the only conclusion is that within Africa, before resale, the blades were being stamped. Even if they were European blades.

That is why I am trying to find more examples of verified European swords (not just the blades) where the two moons have the faces pointing outwards.

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2012, 04:34 AM

Hi Iain,
While I cannot offer any substantiating evidence, I feel compelled to think of these thuluth covered weapons coming from the Sennar regions with many of them entering there from Red Sea trade. It seems quite likely that as they entered the trade routes westward, these dukari imbuements were probably stamped in over the thuluth in the key locations and configurations by armourers in the route posts.
As you note, the presence of these moons does not signify a European blade, in fact as I once noted, these paired moons seem quite unusual on European blades, though they are certainly known in some cases.

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 15th December 2012, 01:32 PM

Hi Jim,

Yes, the moons do seem unusual in a European consequence and it is pretty clear now that a European blade unfortunately is not verification for the markings it might bear.

Doesn't make things any easier, that's for sure!

Martin Lubojacky · 15th December 2012, 03:28 PM

Hi all,
I was of the opinion (I think I red it somewere, I am not sure if not here some years ago ?), that collectors differ between "original half moons" (of more "18/19th century European style face engravings", i.e.more detailed, with "cucumber noses", with something like hints of eyebrows) and their copies made locally (more schematic) ?
Regards,
Martin

Iain · 15th December 2012, 04:22 PM

Hi Martin,

Yes that is the generally held idea - the more detailed and well struck the marks the more likely to be European originals. I would have to say the marks on your sword are exceptionally well made.

One of the things I look for is if the marks are of an even depth - struck when the metal is hot. A lot of the native marks are unevenly struck due to being done "cold".

An interesting thing, is that of the triple fuller blades that appear to be European that I have seen, most have not had half moon marks at all! But rather nothing, or astral engravings (moon, stars, etc).

Here's the link to the one German sword I mentioned before.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=28

17th November 2012, 04:28 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Owners of takouba and kaskara - a little help needed! Hi guys, I'm chasing down a potential tidbit of info related to the half moon (dukari) marks. Very specifically I am looking for examples of triple fullered blades where the half moons are facing each other - as in the picture I am attaching. Many thanks if others could post similar examples! Iain Attached Images

17th November 2012, 10:44 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Iain As requested . Attached Images

18th November 2012, 05:52 PM	#8
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	look this article A METALLURGICAL STUDY OF SOME VIKING SWORDS http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...wnload/218/222

13th December 2012, 09:14 AM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Moons Salaams Iain see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453 for a couple of moons. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi

13th December 2012, 09:53 AM	#11
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Ibrahiim, I'm well aware of the thread. There's one piece in the thread posted by Fernando, that fits my criteria. A German executioner's sword. One of the reasons I started this thread. But thanks for linking it! Last edited by Iain; 13th December 2012 at 10:16 AM.

18th November 2012, 01:44 AM	#3
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39

18th November 2012, 01:29 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That one doesn't seem to apply. Iain specifically requested examples of the "missionary position":-)

18th November 2012, 05:16 PM	#6
regihis Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 39	Hello Iain, The analysis of the swords using the literature is wonderful. It would be a fantastic complement the use of chemical analyzes and comparisons. There is already such a study?

18th November 2012, 06:35 PM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Regihis, I am familiar with this study. Unfortunately, as far as I know this requires a cross section of the blade. This is the somewhat invasive method I was referring to before.

13th December 2012, 08:00 PM	#12
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi Iain, crescents on this sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16298 does not face each other, but I would say they were "stamped in Europe" and also the blade is both well flexible, with nice thick profile and I would say hard, too.....

14th December 2012, 09:51 AM	#13
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Martin, Thanks for linking your example. I agree the blade looks very high quality. I have started to suspect almost all half moon marks I encounter though. It seems that a blade being European is no indication the stamps are. I have seen several examples now of thuluth blades where the half moon stamps are well struck, the blades are European, but the half moons are applied after the thuluth. Unless makers like Clauberg were doing the thuluth themselves the only conclusion is that within Africa, before resale, the blades were being stamped. Even if they were European blades. That is why I am trying to find more examples of verified European swords (not just the blades) where the two moons have the faces pointing outwards.

15th December 2012, 04:34 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi Iain, While I cannot offer any substantiating evidence, I feel compelled to think of these thuluth covered weapons coming from the Sennar regions with many of them entering there from Red Sea trade. It seems quite likely that as they entered the trade routes westward, these dukari imbuements were probably stamped in over the thuluth in the key locations and configurations by armourers in the route posts. As you note, the presence of these moons does not signify a European blade, in fact as I once noted, these paired moons seem quite unusual on European blades, though they are certainly known in some cases. All the best, Jim

15th December 2012, 01:32 PM	#15
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Jim, Yes, the moons do seem unusual in a European consequence and it is pretty clear now that a European blade unfortunately is not verification for the markings it might bear. Doesn't make things any easier, that's for sure!

15th December 2012, 03:28 PM	#16
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi all, I was of the opinion (I think I red it somewere, I am not sure if not here some years ago ?), that collectors differ between "original half moons" (of more "18/19th century European style face engravings", i.e.more detailed, with "cucumber noses", with something like hints of eyebrows) and their copies made locally (more schematic) ? Regards, Martin

15th December 2012, 04:22 PM	#17
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Martin, Yes that is the generally held idea - the more detailed and well struck the marks the more likely to be European originals. I would have to say the marks on your sword are exceptionally well made. One of the things I look for is if the marks are of an even depth - struck when the metal is hot. A lot of the native marks are unevenly struck due to being done "cold". An interesting thing, is that of the triple fuller blades that appear to be European that I have seen, most have not had half moon marks at all! But rather nothing, or astral engravings (moon, stars, etc). Here's the link to the one German sword I mentioned before. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=28