Board ID?

David · 8th April 2010, 08:39 PM

Okay, this is only keris related due to my own adaptaion, but hopefully someone here can help me.
I have had this carved board for a few years and i turned it into a keris board a while back for this Madura patrem. The board is about 22 inches long and varies around 7+ inches wide. It has a really nice patina and has some obvious age to it. As you can probably see it has holes all around the perimeter so it was probably attached to something at one time. I have thought it could have at one time been the backing for some kind of carrying basket, maybe even for carrying a child, but i'm just guessing.
So may questions are firstly:
1. Where is it from? The designs remind me a bit of Dayak work, but i am not sure.
2. What was it used for before i turned it into a keris board?

Gustav · 8th April 2010, 09:08 PM

Similar demonic faces are depicted on funeral objects in Central-Borneo, Mahakam, called "lightning-faces".

Strange is the long tongue.

Gustav · 8th April 2010, 10:49 PM

David, you probably are wright (but the tongue stays strange

)

David · 9th April 2010, 04:21 AM

Thanks Gustav. That is pretty much how i suspected this board was used.
Anyone else have any ideas what tribe this might be from?

Marcokeris · 9th April 2010, 01:14 PM

There are many Dayak tribes in Borneo (Kayan, Keniah, Iban, Bahau, Modang......) Sometimes also local (or made by Kalimantan carvers) keris handles are influenced by these tribe patterns.

David · 9th April 2010, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

There are many Dayak tribes in Borneo (Kayan, Keniah, Iban, Bahau, Modang......) Sometimes also local (or made by Kalimantan carvers) keris handles are influenced by these tribe patterns.

Yes, i realize there are many different tribes. That's why i was hoping that someone here might recognize this style of carving and be able to nail it down to a specific one.

Marcokeris · 11th April 2010, 01:29 PM

This ancestor Aso motif can be seen in a lot of book about Borneo tribes art .. all written in english language with many pics and also accurate description about meaning and symbolism (for example: hornbill and dragon, borneo and beyond, the eloquent dead,.... ).
IMO to put a keris on this kind of board is the same to put a little ET in crib...but of course is only my personal taste

...Here some keris hits with (i suppose) borneo patterns

David · 11th April 2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

This ancestor Aso motif can be seen in a lot of book about Borneo tribes art .. all written in english language with many pics and also accurate description about meaning and symbolism (for example: hornbill and dragon, borneo and beyond, the eloquent dead,.... ).
IMO to put a keris on this kind of board is the same to put a little ET in crib...but of course is only my personal taste

Thanks for the examples Marco. I am not too concerned about the cross-culture between keris and board. I wouldn't put a Borneo hilt on a Madura Keris, or for that matter, even a Jawa hilt on one, but as a method to display this keris i am just fine with. If i had a baby ET i would probaby put it in a crib too.

Still i am hoping that we might be able to identify the actual tribe this came from through the particular style of this carving. Maybe i should move this over to the main forum since some of our Dayak experts might not have seen this over here on the keris forum.

ganjawulung · 12th April 2010, 02:11 PM

How about this "Rangda", ratu leak of Balinese magic world? (A picture from somewhere...)

David · 12th April 2010, 02:37 PM

Ganja, i am not sure what, if any, relationship exists between Rangda and this image, but the similarities with it's out-stretched tongue did not get past me.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2010, 11:06 PM

No comment.

EDIT:-

Sorry, I thought it was obvious:- Maori haka

Gustav · 12th April 2010, 11:49 PM

Yes, the use of tongue is very extensive in maori culture

Borneo:

A. G. Maisey · 13th April 2010, 12:37 AM

Yes Gustav very extensive, in some other cultures too.

Useful implement, the tongue.

Gustav · 13th April 2010, 08:01 AM

BluErf · 13th April 2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

This ancestor Aso motif can be seen in a lot of book about Borneo tribes art .. all written in english language with many pics and also accurate description about meaning and symbolism (for example: hornbill and dragon, borneo and beyond, the eloquent dead,.... ).
IMO to put a keris on this kind of board is the same to put a little ET in crib...but of course is only my personal taste

...Here some keris hits with (i suppose) borneo patterns

I think the 1st 2 pics are of a Tajong-like hilt produced by non-native carvers. So the motif cannot be considered accurate for Tajongs.

David · 13th April 2010, 05:36 PM

Okay, just going to reel this in a bit and focus.

I could be wrong, but i don't think that this is an American board depicting the great god the atom Enstein, nor is it from a Malay tajong design or the Maori of New Zealand.

I am fairly sure it is indeed Dayak. I am also fairly sure that it should, to some extent at least, be possible to determine what tribe it is based on the actual design of the carving. I have seen some of our Dayak collectors tell tribal origin of mandaus based on the carving of the hilts so it seems to follow that design styles are specific to certain groups. I would also be very interested in understanding what the purpose of the basket this was attached to might have been. The one Gustav shows might provide some clues to this as it seems to be in a museum. Was there any descriptive labeling?

Gustav · 13th April 2010, 10:00 PM

No David, there wasn't. It is from de Young museum in San Francisco.

A. G. Maisey · 13th April 2010, 10:42 PM

David, this subject of Dyak tribe ID of ethnographic objects based upon carving style is something I know diddley squat about.

No way I could even attempt it.

However, give me half a dozen or so mandaus and I will probably be able to ID tribe of origin.

Why?

Because Hornbill & Dragon and some other minor books I have, between them, give pretty comprehensive coverage of mandau and other weapon styles that are associated with the various tribes.

To jump from that sort of ID to an ID based on stylistic variation might be asking just a wee bit too much.

asomotif · 13th April 2010, 11:05 PM

Hello David,

Pfew, at last one of the Borneo freaks steps in

Following the recent threads on mandau hilts and the extensive knowledge of Arjan, I must say that I become very reluctant to put a name to tribes.
I am not much of a reader, and presently I am at a stage where I feel the more I know, the less I know

But this board gives me one first impression , and that is that it is not very traditional/old. It really looks like tourist style to me.
Also the kind of wood is strange.
Is it really black ? or is it made black with pigment ?
is it heavy wood ? because heavy wood would not be handy for a back pack.

Ps. here is my example.
Bought it from the person who collected it approx 15 years ago.
So definately not old, but well made, more according to the traditional motifs.
But still you can see the carving is by far not as fine as when they made these in the past (say before WW2).

David · 14th April 2010, 02:16 PM

Thanks for a rely from the "Borneo Freak Squad"

Willem.
My board isn't as black as it appears in the photos, but it is a very dark brown, The other side of the board is dark as well, but at least a shade lighter so i do suspect that some pigment may have been added. The wood is not heavy at all so i see no problem with it being carried as part of a back pack. The carving has a nice patina and appears to have some age to it, but i suppose this could be faked. I bought to a few years back for a song from a guy who sells lots of Bali and Jawa imports and collected it on a trip there. He had no idea about it at the time and thought it was a Bali piece.
Tourist or not, it is decorative and serves it's purpose.

asomotif · 16th April 2010, 01:01 AM

Quote:

at the time and thought it was a Bali piece.

It probably is, considering the colour and style.
But it has its function now, keeping the bad spirits away

I found one more backpack pic.

8th April 2010, 08:39 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Board ID? Okay, this is only keris related due to my own adaptaion, but hopefully someone here can help me. I have had this carved board for a few years and i turned it into a keris board a while back for this Madura patrem. The board is about 22 inches long and varies around 7+ inches wide. It has a really nice patina and has some obvious age to it. As you can probably see it has holes all around the perimeter so it was probably attached to something at one time. I have thought it could have at one time been the backing for some kind of carrying basket, maybe even for carrying a child, but i'm just guessing. So may questions are firstly: 1. Where is it from? The designs remind me a bit of Dayak work, but i am not sure. 2. What was it used for before i turned it into a keris board? Attached Images

8th April 2010, 10:49 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	David, you probably are wright (but the tongue stays strange ) Attached Images

11th April 2010, 01:29 PM	#7
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	This ancestor Aso motif can be seen in a lot of book about Borneo tribes art .. all written in english language with many pics and also accurate description about meaning and symbolism (for example: hornbill and dragon, borneo and beyond, the eloquent dead,.... ). IMO to put a keris on this kind of board is the same to put a little ET in crib...but of course is only my personal taste ...Here some keris hits with (i suppose) borneo patterns Attached Images

12th April 2010, 02:11 PM	#9
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	How about this "Rangda", ratu leak of Balinese magic world? (A picture from somewhere...) Attached Images

12th April 2010, 11:06 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	No comment. EDIT:- Sorry, I thought it was obvious:- Maori haka Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 12th April 2010 at 11:40 PM.

8th April 2010, 09:08 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Similar demonic faces are depicted on funeral objects in Central-Borneo, Mahakam, called "lightning-faces". Strange is the long tongue.

9th April 2010, 04:21 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Thanks Gustav. That is pretty much how i suspected this board was used. Anyone else have any ideas what tribe this might be from?

9th April 2010, 01:14 PM	#5
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	There are many Dayak tribes in Borneo (Kayan, Keniah, Iban, Bahau, Modang......) Sometimes also local (or made by Kalimantan carvers) keris handles are influenced by these tribe patterns.

12th April 2010, 02:37 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Ganja, i am not sure what, if any, relationship exists between Rangda and this image, but the similarities with it's out-stretched tongue did not get past me.

12th April 2010, 11:49 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Yes, the use of tongue is very extensive in maori culture Borneo: Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 13th April 2010 at 01:00 PM.

13th April 2010, 12:37 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Yes Gustav very extensive, in some other cultures too. Useful implement, the tongue.

13th April 2010, 08:01 AM	#14
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 13th April 2010 at 10:08 AM.

13th April 2010, 05:36 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Okay, just going to reel this in a bit and focus. I could be wrong, but i don't think that this is an American board depicting the great god the atom Enstein, nor is it from a Malay tajong design or the Maori of New Zealand. I am fairly sure it is indeed Dayak. I am also fairly sure that it should, to some extent at least, be possible to determine what tribe it is based on the actual design of the carving. I have seen some of our Dayak collectors tell tribal origin of mandaus based on the carving of the hilts so it seems to follow that design styles are specific to certain groups. I would also be very interested in understanding what the purpose of the basket this was attached to might have been. The one Gustav shows might provide some clues to this as it seems to be in a museum. Was there any descriptive labeling?

13th April 2010, 10:00 PM	#17
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	No David, there wasn't. It is from de Young museum in San Francisco.

13th April 2010, 10:42 PM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	David, this subject of Dyak tribe ID of ethnographic objects based upon carving style is something I know diddley squat about. No way I could even attempt it. However, give me half a dozen or so mandaus and I will probably be able to ID tribe of origin. Why? Because Hornbill & Dragon and some other minor books I have, between them, give pretty comprehensive coverage of mandau and other weapon styles that are associated with the various tribes. To jump from that sort of ID to an ID based on stylistic variation might be asking just a wee bit too much.

13th April 2010, 11:05 PM	#19
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	Hello David, Pfew, at last one of the Borneo freaks steps in Following the recent threads on mandau hilts and the extensive knowledge of Arjan, I must say that I become very reluctant to put a name to tribes. I am not much of a reader, and presently I am at a stage where I feel the more I know, the less I know But this board gives me one first impression , and that is that it is not very traditional/old. It really looks like tourist style to me. Also the kind of wood is strange. Is it really black ? or is it made black with pigment ? is it heavy wood ? because heavy wood would not be handy for a back pack. Ps. here is my example. Bought it from the person who collected it approx 15 years ago. So definately not old, but well made, more according to the traditional motifs. But still you can see the carving is by far not as fine as when they made these in the past (say before WW2). Attached Images Last edited by asomotif; 14th April 2010 at 01:17 PM.

14th April 2010, 02:16 PM	#20
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Thanks for a rely from the "Borneo Freak Squad" Willem. My board isn't as black as it appears in the photos, but it is a very dark brown, The other side of the board is dark as well, but at least a shade lighter so i do suspect that some pigment may have been added. The wood is not heavy at all so i see no problem with it being carried as part of a back pack. The carving has a nice patina and appears to have some age to it, but i suppose this could be faked. I bought to a few years back for a song from a guy who sells lots of Bali and Jawa imports and collected it on a trip there. He had no idea about it at the time and thought it was a Bali piece. Tourist or not, it is decorative and serves it's purpose.