Need help with the markings on this Swashbuckling Cutlass / Sabre?

[dana_w]

I am not sure how best to classify this sword. The large knuckle guard is decorated with pierced hearts. The crossguard has a basket that protects the thumb which look like a swept hilt, and large decorated quillons that are almost serpentine. There are some interesting marks on the back of the blade.

The grip is missing and has been replaced with some pieces of wood wrapped in black tape.

The overall length of the sword is 33 ½ inches, and it is 8 ¼ wide at the guard. The blade is 29 ⅛ inches long, almost an 1 ½ wide and ¼ thick where it meets the guard. The false edge 9 ½ inches long. The sword weighs 2 lb, 4 ⅜ oz

These photos are copyright (c) 2015 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Dana,
Check out the terms Dussack and Sinclair sabre. Apologies for not expanding on that but I'm just on my way out.
Regards,
Norman.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Dana,
Check out the terms Dussack and Sinclair sabre. Apologies for not expanding on that but I'm just on my way out.
Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norman McCormick! I am opening a Google search now.

[dana_w]

Now that I know the right term (thanks again Norman McCormick), there is a lot of good information on Dussack / Sinclair Sabres here in the forums. Here are a few links:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...bre#post182682

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...bre#post115187

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...bre#post115165

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...abre#post59256

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...abre#post57546

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...abre#post40564

I'll add a few additional photos too.

These photos are copyright (c) 2015 by Dana K. Williams. All Rights Are Reserved

[M ELEY]

Hello, Dana. Per our PM, just wanted to say again what a magnificent sword you have! Perusing some of the attached pics from the other dussack threads, you might note the style has more of an open unattached guard. Again, per our conversation, it is interesting to note that in Exquamillon's buccaneer/ pirate volume, both Jean David Nau (l'Olonnais) and Roc the Brazilian are pictured with similar clipped point Sinclair-types. Although possibly done for artistic license, I don't think it is too whimsical that such a sword would have been unpopular with pirates or naval men. As a sort of precursor to later cutlass types, it offered good coverage for the hand. The Gathenheim's (husband and wife privateers that formed a flotilla of Swedish pirates to protect that coast) certainly might have used such swords. Yes, I know I'm dragging the pirate theme in again, but you might note that many naval museums have thrown in Sinclairs as naval swords despite no absolute provenance of such...

www.cindyvallar.com/lollonais.html

http://www.golden-age-of-piracy.com/...brasiliano.php

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello, Dana. Per our PM, just wanted to say again what a magnificent sword you have! Perusing some of the attached pics from the other dussack threads, you might note the style has more of an open unattached guard. Again, per our conversation, it is interesting to note that in Exquamillon's buccaneer/ pirate volume, both Jean David Nau (l'Olonnais) and Roc the Brazilian are pictured with similar clipped point Sinclair-types. Although possibly done for artistic license, I don't think it is too whimsical that such a sword would have been unpopular with pirates or naval men. As a sort of precursor to later cutlass types, it offered good coverage for the hand. The Gathenheim's (husband and wife privateers that formed a flotilla of Swedish pirates to protect that coast) certainly might have used such swords. Yes, I know I'm dragging the pirate theme in again, but you might note that many naval museums have thrown in Sinclairs as naval swords despite no absolute provenance of such...

www.cindyvallar.com/lollonais.html

http://www.golden-age-of-piracy.com/...brasiliano.php

Thanks Captain Mark. Your information was very helpful. I was able to find a good online copy of Alexandre Exquemelin and see the illustrations you were talking about.

“The Buccaneers of America” is a remarkable eyewitness account by Alexander Exquemelin, first published in 1678.

http://www.loc.gov/…/ex…/interactive...rs-of-america/

https://books.google.com/books…

Maybe someday someone will see the photos above and decode the inscription on the blade, but I won't hold my breath.

[Jim McDougall]

Dana,
The stamped devices seen in your blade correspond to various Italian origin marks most notably those known as 'twig' marks (the central figure is indeterminate), which were used in numerous configurations. While obviously this would suggest such origin for this blade, it seems doubtful as Solingen was typically the source for most of these. I believe it is quite possible that this may be a Styrian blade as they often copied Italian marks in these times. I need to check further into Boccia & Coelho to see if perhaps the original marks are there,.

As Cap/n Mark has noted, these stout heavy bladed sabres were often favored in maritime context for the excellent hand protection and heavy shorter blades ideal for close quarters/ melee engagement. I would note here that these so called 'Sinclair' sabres ( more accurately dusagge) were also long believed to have been highly influential to Highland basket hilts.
While that specific claim is somewhat disputed, it is notable that these distinctive 'heart' devices in the hilt also occur regularly in pierced designs in Highland basket hilts. It seems quite possible that this association might secure certain associations between these and the same design seen in those basket hilts.

[ulfberth]

Hello Dana, my compliments on this untouched sword !
As Jim said, the blade could be Solingen or Styrian, these swords were well used all over Europe from Italy to Denmark in the 16th and 17th century and maybe even as Pirate swords.
After all they are very useful for close range sword fighting, although their balance lends more to slashing and cutting they can be uses for stabbing as well.
The picture is from the castle in Coburg Germany, in the front you can see swords with the same rectangle pommel on different hilts, basket hilts and simpler hilts, in the back left side, there are several one's like yours with a sail guard hilt and rectangle pommel,one even has the heart shape in it.
These swords were well spread in use and over an extensive period by farmers, citizens, soldiers etc.

Kind regards
Ulfberth

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Dana,
The stamped devices seen in your blade correspond to various Italian origin marks most notably those known as 'twig' marks (the central figure is indeterminate), which were used in numerous configurations. While obviously this would suggest such origin for this blade, it seems doubtful as Solingen was typically the source for most of these. I believe it is quite possible that this may be a Styrian blade as they often copied Italian marks in these times. I need to check further into Boccia & Coelho to see if perhaps the original marks are there,.

As Cap/n Mark has noted, these stout heavy bladed sabres were often favored in maritime context for the excellent hand protection and heavy shorter blades ideal for close quarters/ melee engagement. I would note here that these so called 'Sinclair' sabres ( more accurately dusagge) were also long believed to have been highly influential to Highland basket hilts.
While that specific claim is somewhat disputed, it is notable that these distinctive 'heart' devices in the hilt also occur regularly in pierced designs in Highland basket hilts. It seems quite possible that this association might secure certain associations between these and the same design seen in those basket hilts.

Thanks Jim! You are always such a wealth of information. Now I just need to do a search for 'twig' marks and find some examples. You've mentioned Solingen before and I will revisit those discussions while making a new search for "Styrian" and "Boccia & Coelho".

Maybe you could answer a question, why is this a sabres rather than a cutlass? Is the blade to short or narrow? Is it now curved enough?

***

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hello Dana, my compliments on this untouched sword !
As Jim said, the blade could be Solingen or Styrian, these swords were well used all over Europe from Italy to Denmark in the 16th and 17th century and maybe even as Pirate swords.
After all they are very useful for close range sword fighting, although their balance lends more to slashing and cutting they can be uses for stabbing as well.
The picture is from the castle in Coburg Germany, in the front you can see swords with the same rectangle pommel on different hilts, basket hilts and simpler hilts, in the back left side, there are several one's like yours with a sail guard hilt and rectangle pommel,one even has the heart shape in it.
These swords were well spread in use and over an extensive period by farmers, citizens, soldiers etc.

Kind regards
Ulfberth

Thanks for the kind words and comments and Ulfberth. And especially for sharing the photo.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dana,
When it comes to the 'name game' all kinds of twists and turns come up. One might think 'cutlass' pertains only to maritime swords, while ashore they are 'hangers'....like a map is on terra firma while it becomes a 'chart' at sea.
The etymologists deem the term cutlass from the French 'couteau' as in couteau de chasse =hunting hanger. etc.

These short, heavy, curved blades were termed loosely sabres, as in 'Sinclair sabres' as used by forces in militias etc. on land.

I have seen many heavy bladed hangers termed 'cutlasses' in a more collective manner, but I think in most cases cutlass is reserved for maritime associated curved swords. Many of these forms of sword had large shellguards and in a number of cases in pirate related jargon they were called simply a 'shell'.

I' ll see if I can get to Wallace or Boccia and look for that mark.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Dana,
When it comes to the 'name game' all kinds of twists and turns come up. One might think 'cutlass' pertains only to maritime swords, while ashore they are 'hangers'....like a map is on terra firma while it becomes a 'chart' at sea.
The etymologists deem the term cutlass from the French 'couteau' as in couteau de chasse =hunting hanger. etc.

These short, heavy, curved blades were termed loosely sabres, as in 'Sinclair sabres' as used by forces in militias etc. on land.

I have seen many heavy bladed hangers termed 'cutlasses' in a more collective manner, but I think in most cases cutlass is reserved for maritime associated curved swords. Many of these forms of sword had large shellguards and in a number of cases in pirate related jargon they were called simply a 'shell'.

I' ll see if I can get to Wallace or Boccia and look for that mark.

Thanks again for helping put me on the right path Jim.

[Jim McDougall]

You bet Dana!
Just plowed through Boccia and Wallace, and it seems though no exact match, the triplicate nature of this grouping using 'twigs' flanking a central device was typical in many North Italian instances around end of 15th c. through the 16th. I would personally think that Styria would be a most likely source for this blade.

These types of stout sabres, which actually are most correctly termed 'dusagge' are of forms very much in accord with Italian 'storta' of these times (also short sabres). These were used by many mercenary forces often supplied through Styria as well as Passau and other regional centers, thus the diffusion of these forms, accompanied by the markings which signified quality etc to these groups.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

You bet Dana!
Just plowed through Boccia and Wallace, and it seems though no exact match, the triplicate nature of this grouping using 'twigs' flanking a central device was typical in many North Italian instances around end of 15th c. through the 16th. I would personally think that Styria would be a most likely source for this blade.

These types of stout sabres, which actually are most correctly termed 'dusagge' are of forms very much in accord with Italian 'storta' of these times (also short sabres). These were used by many mercenary forces often supplied through Styria as well as Passau and other regional centers, thus the diffusion of these forms, accompanied by the markings which signified quality etc to these groups.

Can you believe that some people think studying ends after they graduate? Thanks again Jim!

[ulfberth]

Dana,

is there a story that goes with this sword, I mean I'm sure there is but is it known or do you know were it came from or were it was found?

best

Ulfberth

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Dana,

is there a story that goes with this sword, I mean I'm sure there is but is it known or do you know were it came from or were it was found?

best

Ulfberth

I wish there was a story to go with the sword. I know Dad already owned it when I was five years old. Here is frame from a film shot during the 400th anniversary of St. Augustine Florida's founding in 1965. One of my dad's friends Dan Holiday is dress as a pirate carrying the sword in a parade.

A short clip of the video can be seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBMO...o&spfreload=10

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by dana_w

I wish there was a story to go with the sword. I know Dad already owned it when I was five years old. Here is frame from a film shot during the 400th anniversary of St. Augustine Florida's founding in 1965. One of my dad's friends Dan Holiday is dress as a pirate carrying the sword in a parade.

A short clip of the video can be seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBMO...o&spfreload=10

Dana,
What better story could there be !
A pure sword in untouched condition!
I must admit when I saw you'r location the pirate background is sure a possibility, in fact it seems the best explanation for a late 16th or 17th century sword of that type getting there.
If you father bought it at an arms dealer he would have told you.
I think you should shout " boom baby"

best
Ulfberth

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Dana,
What better story could there be !
A pure sword in untouched condition!
I must admit when I saw you'r location the pirate background is sure a possibility, in fact it seems the best explanation for a late 16th or 17th century sword of that type getting there.
If you father bought it at an arms dealer he would have told you.
I think you should shout " boom baby"

best
Ulfberth

Thanks Ulfberth.

The 429th anniversary of Sir Francis Drake’s raid on St. Augustine is fast approaching. The raid took place May 27th through the 29th 1586.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_St._Augustine

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by dana_w

Thanks Ulfberth.

The 429th anniversary of Sir Francis Drake’s raid on St. Augustine is fast approaching. The raid took place May 27th through the 29th 1586.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_St._Augustine

it fits perfect in the timeline of the sword !!

[Jim McDougall]

You're very welcome Dana!
Indeed, study never stops, and I have always perceived these pages as my curriculum in a 'university' of the study of arms (hoplology...but never cared much for the term where I was studying for a degree......with a small army of 'professors' providing endless 'homework' !
It has been an exciting journey and I hope never ending.

As Ulfberth has well noted, what a perfect and colorful history for a beautiful example of these dusagge. It is very interesting that St. Augustine, a key port in the 'Spanish Main' and the busy trade networks of those times, would be a repository for a wide spectrum of arms from many countries.

All best regards,
Jim

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Ulfberth has well noted, what a perfect and colorful history for a beautiful example of these dusagge. It is very interesting that St. Augustine, a key port in the 'Spanish Main' and the busy trade networks of those times, would be a repository for a wide spectrum of arms from many countries.
Jim

Florida changed hands a few times. Many French, Spanish, English, and "Indian" relics went into the ground here. And many different cultures came as labor. For example the Greeks:

http://orthodoxhistory.org/2009/12/2...-florida-1768/