Any idea of what I just purchased

Kmaddock · 15th March 2018, 09:53 PM

Hi All
Not much to go on I know
I will have item in a week or so and I have no info other than images I have put here
It is the green handled sword I am wondering about, looks like some sort of stone material on the handle
the spdroon looks nice as well, and the British sword should subsidize the price of the other two swords quiet well, I have put these to give idea of scale.

Anyone know what I have, ethnic or European I do not know
Any information much appreciated as always
Regards
Ken

fernando · 15th March 2018, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

... It is the green handled sword I am wondering about, looks like some sort of stone material on the handle ...

Bizarre; isn't the (whatever) blade inside its sheath ?

David R · 15th March 2018, 10:32 PM

Green dyed Ivory grip, and a very battered 18th C. hunting sword??

Norman McCormick · 15th March 2018, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Green dyed Ivory grip, and a very battered 18th C. hunting sword??

Exactly!
Regards,
Norman.

Kmaddock · 15th March 2018, 10:39 PM

Hi
Yes Fernando it looks as if the sword is in a scabard, I decided not to mention this to see if others taught the same.

Dyed Ivory was that a well known adaptation? I never heard of it, bu5 I don’t know a lot about a lot of things.
Swords are in other part of the country but I should be able to arrange shipment tomorrow and I will post up pictures then, probably not much to discuss with images provided but I am looking forward to seeing what I have bought

Regards

Ken

Norman McCormick · 15th March 2018, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Hi
Yes Fernando it looks as if the sword is in a scabard, I decided not to mention this to see if others taught the same.

Dyed Ivory was that a well known adaptation?

Ken

Hi Ken,
It does look like there are remnants of a scabbard but it is difficult to be sure. Dyed ivory is indeed a well known form of embellishment but not common.
Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 16th March 2018, 05:42 AM

Just repeating and confirming what others have already said...18th century hanger, possibly English, French or American, dyed green ivory was in vogue mid/late 18th c., your piece appears to be missing its cross-guard and pommel cap, but need better pics. And yes, it appears to be stuck in its scabbard. Not an uncommon conundrum, unfortunately. Most of these were hunting pieces, but they were also popular with infantry and naval officers.
mark

kronckew · 16th March 2018, 09:07 PM

See also George Washington's swords here on the forum, specifically the 'fishkill' sword, a green gripped cuttoe/hanger/hunting sword he favoured.

Kmaddock · 16th March 2018, 10:13 PM

Thanks for finding the link to George Washington’s sword I can see the similarities alright
I will have swords by Tuesday or Wednesday
It’s the St Patrick’s day festival here in Ireland so things slow down.

Looking forward to seeing what I have now and I will share pictures next week
Happy St Patrick’s day and if there is any Irish in you at all raise a glass over the weekend!!!
Slainte (cheers is Gaelic)
Ken

Hotspur · 18th March 2018, 02:46 AM

If that is the tang of the blade sticking way out, it may be a composite. It also seems to be missing a guard of any type.

Cheers

GC

Ian · 18th March 2018, 07:59 AM

Hi Ken:

I tried enhancing the pictures you posted, and the handle is a bit more visible in one of them.

Ian.

.

kronckew · 18th March 2018, 10:33 AM

That tang extension may have been for a missing pommel, possibly a lion or an eagle shape, as well as for holding the missing guard piece(s). the green grip may be a bit further forward that it was when the guard piece was there.

Hotspur · 18th March 2018, 07:55 PM

Yes, with a quillion block, and cap/pommel, that all might add up.

Cheers

GC

Roland_M · 19th March 2018, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmaddock

Anyone know what I have, ethnic or European I do not know
Any information much appreciated as always
Regards
Ken

Hello Ken,

I'm relatively sure, that this is a so called "Jagdplaute", a German slightly curved hunting sword.

Please try this search and you will find more of them:
https://www.google.de/search?q=jagdp...w=1600&bih=864

or this link (only in German): http://www.zietenhusar.wg.am/jagdplaute/

But there is another possibility, it could be an American revolutionary war naval officer's sword. https://www.google.de/search?q=ameri...=1521459846789

In my opinion it is quite unusual for a military sword.

Roland

Kmaddock · 19th March 2018, 06:53 PM

Hi Roland
Thanks for the post, you might have gotten to the bottom of the identification.
I should have sword tomorrow or Wednesday
I will take more pictures when I have it in hand.
Pity about the missing parts but such is the story.
Regards
Ken

kronckew · 19th March 2018, 06:59 PM

if the missing bits were silver, it could be they were stripped off and sold for the metal content.

if you have any craft workshops in your area you may find a jeweller that can lostwax cast replacements with the above drawing as a guide. probably cheaper if you use bronze rather than silver. good luck.

Rick · 19th March 2018, 07:02 PM

I've got a suspicion that the Ivory is in fact a piece of Narwhal tusk.

Kmaddock · 23rd March 2018, 12:01 AM

Hi All
Swords arrived
Here are some better images of my sword
Length of blade is 75 cm
Handle is a further 11 cm
Blade has no markings but some very nice fuller work and is in good enough condition
There is a bit missing from the handle so I can see inside
If it is narwhal or ivory or bone I do not known.
Has anyone got any opinion.It definitely does look like the sword Roland put up I put it closer to the American sword than the German one though?

The remnants we taught was part of scabard was just a strip of leather wound round the blade

I am handy enough at metal work so the silver work might be done.
I have exams coming up but it would be a nice project

The Spadroon is a lovely sword so I will take some pictures of that over the weekend

Regards

Ken

Victrix · 23rd March 2018, 11:42 AM

The thin lines going round the grip look manmade to me so I would guess it’s made from bone. See how those thin lines have been extended to the short side where the pommel would have been attached. May have been made to imitate narwal to keep costs down? Otherwise it could be narwal with decorative lines added by a craftsman.

The American sword is beautiful and if you could fashion a pommel and guard it would look very nice! I guess the chances of finding loose replacements in the market must be slim?

M ELEY · 24th March 2018, 03:07 AM

I still stick with an English hanger, bone handle with green dye.

Here's a past thread of my lion hilt hanger, just to show the similarities in the blade and fuller.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14342

Victrix · 24th March 2018, 11:05 AM

I just thought the handle showed remarkable similarities with the American Revolutionary sword pictured above. As is often the case with old swords, it can be tricky to assign a nationality to them! Might indeed be an England finished sword with a German blade??

Thank you for the link to the excellent thread. Must be many threads like that lurking in the forum. I wish they were filed by topic but here the search function is very useful.

Does anyone know what that little chain on the American Revolutionary sword attaching the guard to the pommel is for? I can’t imagine its purpose is to protect the knuckle as it’s far too delicate. Could it be to prevent the wearer from dropping the sword (which would be especially annoying at sea where it might disappear under the waves forever!) like some portepee? Some Hungarian hussar sabres from the second half of the 17thC also have this feature.

kronckew · 24th March 2018, 12:07 PM

Arabian swords, english mourning swords, and as you see, hunting swords, hangers, and others without knuckle guards can also. I favour the retention option. many still have sword knots...

Victrix · 24th March 2018, 01:48 PM

Hungarian-Polish sabre from Polish Arms by A. Nadolski showing chain.

15th March 2018, 09:53 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Any idea of what I just purchased Hi All Not much to go on I know I will have item in a week or so and I have no info other than images I have put here It is the green handled sword I am wondering about, looks like some sort of stone material on the handle the spdroon looks nice as well, and the British sword should subsidize the price of the other two swords quiet well, I have put these to give idea of scale. Anyone know what I have, ethnic or European I do not know Any information much appreciated as always Regards Ken Attached Images

18th March 2018, 07:59 AM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Hi Ken: I tried enhancing the pictures you posted, and the handle is a bit more visible in one of them. Ian. . Attached Images

19th March 2018, 07:02 PM	#17
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I've got a suspicion that the Ivory is in fact a piece of Narwhal tusk. Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 20th March 2018 at 03:21 AM. Reason: sp

23rd March 2018, 12:01 AM	#18
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi All Swords arrived Here are some better images of my sword Length of blade is 75 cm Handle is a further 11 cm Blade has no markings but some very nice fuller work and is in good enough condition There is a bit missing from the handle so I can see inside If it is narwhal or ivory or bone I do not known. Has anyone got any opinion.It definitely does look like the sword Roland put up I put it closer to the American sword than the German one though? The remnants we taught was part of scabard was just a strip of leather wound round the blade I am handy enough at metal work so the silver work might be done. I have exams coming up but it would be a nice project The Spadroon is a lovely sword so I will take some pictures of that over the weekend Regards Ken Attached Images

24th March 2018, 03:07 AM	#20
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	I still stick with an English hanger, bone handle with green dye. Here's a past thread of my lion hilt hanger, just to show the similarities in the blade and fuller. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14342 Last edited by M ELEY; 24th March 2018 at 03:25 AM.

15th March 2018, 10:32 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Green dyed Ivory grip, and a very battered 18th C. hunting sword??

15th March 2018, 10:39 PM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Yes Fernando it looks as if the sword is in a scabard, I decided not to mention this to see if others taught the same. Dyed Ivory was that a well known adaptation? I never heard of it, bu5 I don’t know a lot about a lot of things. Swords are in other part of the country but I should be able to arrange shipment tomorrow and I will post up pictures then, probably not much to discuss with images provided but I am looking forward to seeing what I have bought Regards Ken

16th March 2018, 05:42 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	Just repeating and confirming what others have already said...18th century hanger, possibly English, French or American, dyed green ivory was in vogue mid/late 18th c., your piece appears to be missing its cross-guard and pommel cap, but need better pics. And yes, it appears to be stuck in its scabbard. Not an uncommon conundrum, unfortunately. Most of these were hunting pieces, but they were also popular with infantry and naval officers. mark

16th March 2018, 09:07 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	See also George Washington's swords here on the forum, specifically the 'fishkill' sword, a green gripped cuttoe/hanger/hunting sword he favoured.

16th March 2018, 10:13 PM	#9
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Thanks for finding the link to George Washington’s sword I can see the similarities alright I will have swords by Tuesday or Wednesday It’s the St Patrick’s day festival here in Ireland so things slow down. Looking forward to seeing what I have now and I will share pictures next week Happy St Patrick’s day and if there is any Irish in you at all raise a glass over the weekend!!! Slainte (cheers is Gaelic) Ken

18th March 2018, 02:46 AM	#10
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	If that is the tang of the blade sticking way out, it may be a composite. It also seems to be missing a guard of any type. Cheers GC

18th March 2018, 10:33 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	That tang extension may have been for a missing pommel, possibly a lion or an eagle shape, as well as for holding the missing guard piece(s). the green grip may be a bit further forward that it was when the guard piece was there.

18th March 2018, 07:55 PM	#13
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 499	Yes, with a quillion block, and cap/pommel, that all might add up. Cheers GC

19th March 2018, 06:53 PM	#15
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Roland Thanks for the post, you might have gotten to the bottom of the identification. I should have sword tomorrow or Wednesday I will take more pictures when I have it in hand. Pity about the missing parts but such is the story. Regards Ken

19th March 2018, 06:59 PM	#16
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	if the missing bits were silver, it could be they were stripped off and sold for the metal content. if you have any craft workshops in your area you may find a jeweller that can lostwax cast replacements with the above drawing as a guide. probably cheaper if you use bronze rather than silver. good luck.

23rd March 2018, 11:42 AM	#19
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 712	The thin lines going round the grip look manmade to me so I would guess it’s made from bone. See how those thin lines have been extended to the short side where the pommel would have been attached. May have been made to imitate narwal to keep costs down? Otherwise it could be narwal with decorative lines added by a craftsman. The American sword is beautiful and if you could fashion a pommel and guard it would look very nice! I guess the chances of finding loose replacements in the market must be slim?

24th March 2018, 11:05 AM	#21
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 712	I just thought the handle showed remarkable similarities with the American Revolutionary sword pictured above. As is often the case with old swords, it can be tricky to assign a nationality to them! Might indeed be an England finished sword with a German blade?? Thank you for the link to the excellent thread. Must be many threads like that lurking in the forum. I wish they were filed by topic but here the search function is very useful. Does anyone know what that little chain on the American Revolutionary sword attaching the guard to the pommel is for? I can’t imagine its purpose is to protect the knuckle as it’s far too delicate. Could it be to prevent the wearer from dropping the sword (which would be especially annoying at sea where it might disappear under the waves forever!) like some portepee? Some Hungarian hussar sabres from the second half of the 17thC also have this feature.

24th March 2018, 12:07 PM	#22
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	Arabian swords, english mourning swords, and as you see, hunting swords, hangers, and others without knuckle guards can also. I favour the retention option. many still have sword knots... Attached Images

24th March 2018, 01:48 PM	#23
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 712	Hungarian-Polish sabre from Polish Arms by A. Nadolski showing chain. Attached Images