'Rose' Mark on the spine of Solingen blades

[Jim McDougall]

This is a magnificent topic and thread! Thank you!
I had asked about the 'ROSE', or what appears to be a floral/vegetal device on the spine of blades near the hilt, and in some arcane fashion as shown in these examples.
Now that I see the context, I am curious on that these seem to appear on blades on French swords, or in European armies' swords during Napoleonic period.
There was mention of these devices being used on Solingen made blades.

I had thought that most blades on French swords of these times were from Klingenthal and of course so marked on the blade spines.

Is it possible that alternatively the blades with these devices on the spines had to do with Caissagnard in Nantes, who embellished blades with certain esoteric and cosmological themed motif?
It seems these blades could have come from Solingen? but would the motif including the 'rose' have been applied in Solingen? then these blades were fitted there.

I am looking forward to other examples of swords with this floral device on the blade spine, and more on these details. Thank you for this thread!

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Now that I see the context, I am curious on that these seem to appear on blades on French swords, or in European armies' swords during Napoleonic period.
There was mention of these devices being used on Solingen made blades.

I have seen other British swords non-Runkel blades that have the Rose, I just don't have one in my collection unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I had thought that most blades on French swords of these times were from Klingenthal and of course so marked on the blade spines.

Only the ones made for the French army needed to be marked on the spine with the manufacturers' name (this includes some Solingen-made An XI light cavalry trooper swords).

Officers' private purchase of swords may or may not be marked, and many blades were imported to meet the demand for blades. Also I say the sword is French, but it could have just as easily belonged to one of the officers from another nation serving in the French Army.

As a side note, I have seen one pamphlet addressed to French officers following the invasion and take over of Solingen, translations for French to German sword terms for those looking to buy a new sword

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Is it possible that alternatively the blades with these devices on the spines had to do with Caissagnard in Nantes, who embellished blades with certain esoteric and cosmological themed motif?

I personally believe that Caissagnard was a cutler and assembled swords from purchased parts rather than manufacture them. I don't believe that the iconography seen on his swords started with him, as there are a lot of variations found on other swords. I suspect he was following the fashion of the time.

I have one Caissagnard blade and the spine is clear of markings.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems these blades could have come from Solingen? but would the motif including the 'rose' have been applied in Solingen? then these blades were fitted there.

I am looking forward to other examples of swords with this floral device on the blade spine, and more on these details. Thank you for this thread!

Looking at the swords with the remaining blue and gilt, I believe that many blades were exported pre-decorated and sold to cutlers who would then fit them to hilts and scabbards.

[Radboud]

Looking through my reference photos I'm seeing a lot of early British swords with Solingen blades but not many where they provide photos of the spine. That said here are a few I did find.

Nice circa 1770 Georgian Horse Grenadiers sword:



Cartouche



Rose Mark



And another from the same era:

Georgian Cavalry Officer's sword


Cartouche


Rose Mark


British Lions' head pommel sabre


Typical Solingen cartouche


No Rose Mark or retailer, just Solingen

[corrado26]

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

Respectfully I disagree, all the blades I have shown have the cartouche on the ricasso and either Solingen on the spine or a rose. These cartouches are not found on British or French-produced blades.

In the case of the S&K marked swords, we know the Solingen-based retailer that exported the rose-marked blades. Plus there are I.C.B marked smallswords with this cartouche (but no rose because of the trefoil blades):

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by corrado26

There is a book published in 1885 showing all blade sins of Solingen since the oldest times, but these "Rose" signs are not to be found. So I think it is very doubtful if these roses are typical or special Solingen signs.

Italian officers sabre
Circa 1790-1800 with Garde de Perle style hilt and horse hair pommel cap.



Cartouche
Square cartouche at the ricasso with Solingen engraved in one side and S & J or S & K on the other.


Rose Mark
Rose mark on the spine of the blade


Interestingly with this sabre, the blade decoration is more bespoke than normally seen

[Jim McDougall]

As with most things, variation and exception are a constant, and with the Solingen situation, it was a manufacturing center for blades, which involved many makers, shops and artisans. Naturally there may have been cases of specific completed swords in which entire decorated blades were mounted there. However, this, in my opinion was one of the exceptions.

To the case in point, I dont believe that the decorative 'rose' images inscribed on the blade spines at the forte were ubiquitous enough in such blades which might have been applied in Solingen to designate them as a 'Solingen' affectation. In most of the cases by the examples shown, they seem to be aligned with French officers swords of 18th c into 19th along with armies associated with the French. As we agree, the blades on these were likely acquired by Caissagnard, and certainly other furbishers, for mounting.

If in some cases, these cutlers had found artisans in Solingen to apply particular decoration, this would not be surprising, however this would be an incidental case, and not supportive of these decorations being a collectively used decoration or certainly not a certain makers indicator from Solingen in specific.

The 18th century was a time where there was a fascination with mysticism, the occult, magic and of course talismanic symbolism oddly combined with superstitious notions and religious invocations. These kinds of elements were attractive to Europeans who regarded the exotica of oriental fashions, weaponry and symbolism as formidable and even fearsome. This was what inspired the concepts of light cavalry, particularly hussars, and led to the notorious 'pandours' of the Austrian armies of the mid 18th c.
These forces were primarily Hungarian and Croatian, and adopted the colorful oriental fashion and arms, which with their known depredations rendered them much feared.

Hungarian swords, much as Polish, often had themes in their decoration of military regalia, arms, and religious symbolism, as prevalent in the Holy Roman Empire. The 'arm in the cloud' notably religious and becoming a familiar heraldic charge, became such an element copied to the west in France, and Germany. Here I would note the use of the 'Turks head', the turbaned figure also used in East Europe, and was among the prevalent element in the Caissagnard themes. The sun and moon figures also came from East Europe, and were actually ancient devices from early tribal histories in Hungary, though I cannot resist the similarity to the 'tarot' card art. ...well aligned with the occult themes of the 18th c.

So these decorative blade conventions traveled through Europe of course including cases in Solingen but most blades made there were simply marked with punzones. The famed 'running wolf' of Passau, began used on blades by contract to certain Passau armorers; the 'ANDREA FERARA' for blades primarily consigned to Scotland (many to England as well); the SAHAGUM (in variation) mostly to Northern Europe.
Many blades used spurious Spanish punzones along with marks intended for espaderos del Rey, incongruently which along with incorrect wording, spelling etc. belied the Solingen origins of these blades.

I am far from claiming metallurgical knowledge or metal processing, but the use of Indian steel (wootz) was indeed widespread, but not necessarily used as such in Viking swords, which were actually mostly from the Rhineland using pattern welded processes. While a great deal of credit is given to key ore deposits around Toledo, Solingen etc. much of the steel used in forging was imported in ingots from locations in Sweden, as one example. It is not to say iron deposits were not present in or around these centers, just that the smelting processes were often supplanted by imported steel in ingots.

These are mostly just my understanding of various aspects of topics we are discussing, and as always, exchanging of these kinds of details give us a better perspective in reaching at least somewhat more comprehensive scope on them.
This along with the remarkable examples being shown is outstanding!

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As with most things, variation and exception are a constant, and with the Solingen situation, it was a manufacturing center for blades, which involved many makers, shops and artisans. Naturally there may have been cases of specific completed swords in which entire decorated blades were mounted there. However, this, in my opinion was one of the exceptions.

How do we qualify an exception? From the surviving examples, we know that Solingen made a vast quantity of blades. If ten percent of their business was completed swords, does this qualify as an exception? What evidence do we have to even speculate on such a percentage?

We know from the research and physical examples that J J Runkel imported into the UK completed swords into the UK; the 1788 pattern from my collection is one of those and a perfect example of a generic 1780s "Hussar" sabre, that would otherwise be labelled "European Hussar Sabre" were it not for the British Ordinance board stamp. The capacity to make those swords had to be in place for him to be able to supply them.



I can show you two other examples of near-identical swords made by Solingen that, were it not for markings, would be nearly impossible to identify accurately.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

To the case in point, I dont believe that the decorative 'rose' images inscribed on the blade spines at the forte were ubiquitous enough in such blades which might have been applied in Solingen to designate them as a 'Solingen' affectation. In most of the cases by the examples shown, they seem to be aligned with French officers swords of 18th c into 19th along with armies associated with the French. As we agree, the blades on these were likely acquired by Caissagnard, and certainly other furbishers, for mounting.

I should point out that in the period they were used, France did control a significant proportion of Europe, inspired the fashion of Europe and filled her armies with men from European allies & vassal states.

Also, there is a huge element of selection bias in the examples I've shown. Since I have primarily focused my personal collecting research on French, British and where possible, Dutch swords. It is only natural that the database of images I have gathered and drawn from will heavily feature swords from these nations. I am sure there are plenty of examples from other nations that I have overlooked since they fall outside of my personal field of interest. With the collectors I have spoken to who share a similar field of interest, it is pretty much a given that the Rose is a Solingen mark, the questions are more around when it started, stopped and what they mean.

If you or anyone else has examples of blades with the Rose that can be positively identified as not having been produced in Solingen, I would be truly grateful.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

If in some cases, these cutlers had found artisans in Solingen to apply particular decoration, this would not be surprising, however this would be an incidental case, and not supportive of these decorations being a collectively used decoration or certainly not a certain makers indicator from Solingen in specific.

I disagree, and the physical evidence demonstrates that a good portion of Solingen-made blades were sold pre-decorated. Furthermore, it is doubtful that many foreign cutlers dealt directly with the bladesmiths themselves, and instead went through intermediaries such as Runkel and S&K.

The two S&K blades I have shown earlier are pretty much identical in decorations, including the S&K logo on the ricasso. Since S&K were specifically traders, they would have purchased these blades with the decorations pre-applied for on-sale to the French cutlers. The smallsword in my collection with the blade from Johann & Clemens Boegel would have been sold with their I.C.B logo and decorations applied to the blade.

Of the twenty-two British swords in my collection, six of them have blades imported by Runkel, four of them have near identical decorations even though they were sold to four different cutlers (Prosser, Bennett, Archer of Dublin and one unknown). Of the two that have atypical decorations, the first is the 1788 that was imported as a complete sword and the second is a 1796 Pattern heavy cavalry officers dress sword. Of the 1796, these have a double-edged blade and the majority of the surviving examples have plain blades with Runkels' signature in the fuller.

When I look at a single-edged British sword, I can instantly spot that it carries a Runkel or Solingen blade purely by its decorations. Naturally, it is likely that bare Solingen blades were imported and then locally decorated in British fashion, but without a Solingen stamp on the blade there is no way to identify an example. Existing blades marked to Solingen with British decorations are rare in my experience.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

So these decorative blade conventions traveled through Europe of course including cases in Solingen but most blades made there were simply marked with punzones. The famed 'running wolf' of Passau, began used on blades by contract to certain Passau armorers; the 'ANDREA FERARA' for blades primarily consigned to Scotland (many to England as well); the SAHAGUM (in variation) mostly to Northern Europe.
Many blades used spurious Spanish punzones along with marks intended for espaderos del Rey, incongruently which along with incorrect wording, spelling etc. belied the Solingen origins of these blades.

I believe that this style of marking (Andrea Ferara and Sahagum) had dropped out of favour by the late 18th Century; blades with these markings typically pre-date the 1760s. I also believe that the Passau wolf disappeared at the end of the 17th century, maybe in the early 18th.

The period that we're talking about, 1770 - 1820, is where we see an increase in the use of complex decorations such as talismanic symbols, etching and chemical blue and gilt finishing. This is the period where the Rose can be found and then disappears. Being able to pinpoint when it disappears helps us date swords better as well.

I agree that the fashion for talismanic symbols very likely came to Western Europe via the Hungarian hussars.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am far from claiming metallurgical knowledge or metal processing, but the use of Indian steel (wootz) was indeed widespread, but not necessarily used as such in Viking swords.

I've only heard of one example but found it incredible so it stuck in my mind. Also remember that the Vikings were first and foremost traders and they travelled as far as the Mediterranean to trade. So using steel from India is not so far-fetched when we consider that Alexander the Great himself invaded India centuries earlier.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These are mostly just my understanding of various aspects of topics we are discussing, and as always, exchanging of these kinds of details give us a better perspective in reaching at least somewhat more comprehensive scope on them. This along with the remarkable examples being shown is outstanding!

Amen to that, we only learn through sharing.

[Radboud]

Probably South German light cavalry officers' sabre (Bavaria, Wurttemberg, Hesse)



Not the best photos, but you can make out the cartouche and a hint of the rose mark




Saxon Light Cavalry officers sabre


Cartouche


Rose Mark


Source: Saxon Napoleonic era Officer's Sabre

And this sabre, I have it as German, but the style could be French as well, especially with that carp's tongue point.



Cartouche


Rose and S&K retailers mark.
This rose appears to be different from my S&K marked sabre. Different bladesmith?