Tulwar with some unusual modifications

blue lander · 29th May 2014, 10:48 PM

I just won an auction for this tulwar for a very cheap price for obvious reasons. I can't make heads or tails of these auction pictures. It looks like the end of the hilt has been replaced with a drawer knob. It also looks like a pin has been pushed through the hilt into the tang.
It does look like the patina on the blade and the hilt are consistent, so I assume these modifications were made a long time ago.
Can anybody tell me anything else about this Tulwar?

Edit: Now I'm wondering if the knob on the end is original. Here's a couple threads with similar hilts

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=148296
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tulwar+hilts

Jim McDougall · 30th May 2014, 07:02 PM

I think you're on track with your assessment on this most unusual and apparently altered tulwar as this pommel seems quite disproportionate .
Thank you for sharing your preliminary findings and thoughts as well, that is a most helpful approach to initiate discussion ... excellent!!!

I am inclined to agree that this 'pommel' seems to be some sort of ersatz replacement using a knob or fixture not intended originally for use on a hilt.
It seems that tribal artisans in regions of India's northwest have always been extremely innovative in refurbishing weapons. It would seem that a 'rugged' and rather obvious fabrication like this would be more likely to have been an authentic 'field' adjustment as opposed to a more 'commercial' product.

While pretty rough, these kinds of examples are always intriguing, as trying to imagine the circumstances in which it became in its present form and condition lend to fascinating possibilities.

blue lander · 30th May 2014, 07:29 PM

Thank you. My other thought is that perhaps it was modified deliberately by some westerner who found the disc uncomfortable and wanted a little extra length in the grip. But if that was the case they probably would have done a tidier job.

Not to digress from the topic at hand, but here's a European looking dagger that appeared to have a dresser drawer knob for a pommel as well. Maybe it's just coincidence. I didn't win the auction for it unfortunately.

Jim McDougall · 30th May 2014, 08:02 PM

It seems that there are a number of examples of tulwar from Afghan regions which are sans pommel disc, and in discussions it was sometimes suggested that Afghans were inclined to have much larger hands than the Indian warriors to the south. Perhaps such replacement or adjustment might have been warranted in accord with these circumstances. It does seem that in those instances that the pommel area was left open, though some of these seem to actually have never had the pommel disc.

In the case of the dagger noted, I would likely be more suspicious, but the coincidence seems interesting.

David R · 30th May 2014, 09:16 PM

The pin through the grip and tang is also a common Afghan feature....look up pulwar also spelled pulouar.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th May 2014, 10:48 PM

The pin was also used by the Indians, but it was mostly hidden by the hilt decoration.
Jens

blue lander · 31st May 2014, 12:01 AM

Thanks both. So that explains the pin and the pommel. Still a mystery is the welding or solder in the middle of the hilt. And it looks like the steel's split in two by the cross guard. Maybe they were field repairs.

Edit: almost forgot to mention the seller's in France, probably the only one I've seen for sale out of that country.

spiral · 1st June 2014, 11:37 PM

The solder/whatever in the middle of the hilt is just to fill a casting flaw.

spiral

blue lander · 2nd June 2014, 05:21 PM

I see. Are Tulwar hilts typically made out of a single piece of cast metal? I've being going through pictures on the forum and I've noticed that some of the plainer hilts have what looks like a weld near the cross guard. It appears to be only on one side. I've attached some pictures of what I'm talking about with the weld circled.

blue lander · 5th June 2014, 07:37 PM

It arrived today, and boy is that hilt weird. First the dimensions...

It's 7mm thick at the base. After the ricasso it tapers to 5mm and stays that way until the false edge at the tip.

The blade's 35mm wide at the base, tapers to 32mm after the ricasso, then towards the tip it widens back to 35mm again.

There's eyelash marks struck by the hilt, but that's the only mark I can see.

The hilt is filled with some shiny metal, maybe zinc. It looks like the hilt was dismantled, filled with zinc, and then put back together again. I don't know what you call it, but the bit of the hilt that's supposed to slide over the scabbard has been pounded down, so it would have never fit in an Indian style scabbard again. Even in this condition the hilt's quite solid and sturdy.

The blade's a very heavy, thick, nice piece of steel. It's in pretty good condition except towards the tip where it's pitted. there's a few tiny failed laminations but otherwise it's a very well built blade. It's very slightly hollow on both sides and the edge is still pretty sharp.

Is there a snowball's chance in hell the blade is wootz? Should I bother trying to etch it?

Jens Nordlunde · 5th June 2014, 10:42 PM

If you look at your pictures you will se that they are not too good, would it be possible to get better pictures?
You are asking questions, but when the picturtes are bad, it is hard to answer your questions.
Jens

blue lander · 5th June 2014, 11:03 PM

I took these pictures with a pretty good camera but they came out blurry for some reason. I think my hand was shaking. I'll try again tomorrow.

spiral · 5th June 2014, 11:28 PM

The "door knob" pommel is welded on with modern equipment... So Id guess an amalgamation of bits... {Or "associated" , as the poshest auction houses say, knowing most buyers don't understand the reality of that expression. { lots of random different age pieces stuck together with, glue,Weld & even bolts & screws to make a few extra quid out of the junk bin = "associated" I London,Paris & New York..

}

Spiral

blue lander · 5th June 2014, 11:58 PM

If I may ask, if it was up to you would you leave this frankenstein as it is or would you free the blade and pair it with at $50 hilt from ebay. I am madly in love with this skull crushing blade but the hilt doesn't do anything for me if it isn't historically interesting.

Rick · 6th June 2014, 02:42 AM

I don't hold out much hope for any part of the ensemble .

Would suggest a more discriminating eye ?

Gavin Nugent · 6th June 2014, 04:35 AM

With regards to the hilts construction, they are made from 9 pieces typically...rarer examples such as silver ones may also have been made from multiple pieces but when finished would appear as a single piece.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tulwar+hilts

Gavin

spiral · 6th June 2014, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

If I may ask, if it was up to you would you leave this frankenstein as it is or would you free the blade and pair it with at $50 hilt from ebay. I am madly in love with this skull crushing blade but the hilt doesn't do anything for me if it isn't historically interesting.

I wouldn't have bought it unless it was the price of a bag of chips....

Even then I don't know what I would do with it. If the blade turned out to be laminated/wootz or well sprung I might re.handle it... otherwise not.

That could be just throwing good money after bad...

But your the man to decide what's useful or collectable to you.

Spiral

blue lander · 6th June 2014, 07:57 PM

Well, I got it for around half the prices of the cheapest Tulwar I've seen go up for auction. I'm just glad it doesn't have "MADE IN INDIA" stamped on it.

I've attached some closeups of the blade steel. There does appear to be some layering but I don't see any evidence of a watered steel pattern. I'll give it a few hours in some diluted PCB etchant and see what happens.

Jim McDougall · 6th June 2014, 09:52 PM

Gav, thank you for that information and for the link ...that was a great and informative thread and I had forgotten it altogether. I had no idea these hilts were made in 9 pieces!

B.L. as far as my opinion on this, I would say leave it alone and focus on the blade, which clearly has its own history before being 'refurbished'. As Spiral has noted, the eloquent smokescreen used by these upper echelon firms use the term 'associated' and often even 'composite' (rather like the term 'antique' describing garage sale junk, just with a higher price). In collectors jargon these kinds of pieces are 'put together' or 'mules'.

Indeed in many colonial regions and tribal cultures the enterprise of creating souveniers for tourists as well as occupying forces etc is a thriving commerce. However, to paint this entire strata of arms with the broad brush of tourist junk and dismiss any possibility of genuine tribal use is often a bit arbitrary despite its high probability.

In the expanse of Afghan regions into the remote tribal areas of northwest India it remains possible for such ersatz creations to remain in use in at least some degree, and has been the case for many years. Native artisans who produce reproductions or traditional items for commercial purposes are remarkably skilled, and this profoundly rough work to me still seems like field work with pragmatic intent.

I have seen 17th century blades mounted with modern, but traditional hilts, which are admittedly less than appealing. However this at least has some age to all components, and in my perception a good context for this fascinating blade. I'd leave it alone, and enjoy imagining the possibilities of the life of the blade in earlier times.

Gavin Nugent · 7th June 2014, 12:58 AM

Thanks Jim,

I say typically when I refer to 9, there are 8 piece examples, 10, 11 & 12 too....just my observations.

Gavin

blue lander · 7th June 2014, 01:10 AM

Thanks Jim, I think I'll leave it as is. I'd have to double my money into it to get even a basic hilt and then it'd be just another low end Tulwar. As it is, it's interesting at least even if it's ugly. And as you say it shows that it's had an interesting life.

I've given it an hour with diluted PCB etchant, nothing interesting's popped up so far. It just turned the blade frosty gray. I'll give it a few more treatments and polish it before I give up.

29th May 2014, 10:48 PM	#1
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Tulwar with some unusual modifications I just won an auction for this tulwar for a very cheap price for obvious reasons. I can't make heads or tails of these auction pictures. It looks like the end of the hilt has been replaced with a drawer knob. It also looks like a pin has been pushed through the hilt into the tang. It does look like the patina on the blade and the hilt are consistent, so I assume these modifications were made a long time ago. Can anybody tell me anything else about this Tulwar? Edit: Now I'm wondering if the knob on the end is original. Here's a couple threads with similar hilts http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=148296 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tulwar+hilts Attached Images Last edited by blue lander; 30th May 2014 at 06:03 PM.

30th May 2014, 07:29 PM	#3
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Thank you. My other thought is that perhaps it was modified deliberately by some westerner who found the disc uncomfortable and wanted a little extra length in the grip. But if that was the case they probably would have done a tidier job. Not to digress from the topic at hand, but here's a European looking dagger that appeared to have a dresser drawer knob for a pommel as well. Maybe it's just coincidence. I didn't win the auction for it unfortunately. Attached Images

31st May 2014, 12:01 AM	#7
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Thanks both. So that explains the pin and the pommel. Still a mystery is the welding or solder in the middle of the hilt. And it looks like the steel's split in two by the cross guard. Maybe they were field repairs. Edit: almost forgot to mention the seller's in France, probably the only one I've seen for sale out of that country. Last edited by blue lander; 31st May 2014 at 02:19 AM.

2nd June 2014, 05:21 PM	#9
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I see. Are Tulwar hilts typically made out of a single piece of cast metal? I've being going through pictures on the forum and I've noticed that some of the plainer hilts have what looks like a weld near the cross guard. It appears to be only on one side. I've attached some pictures of what I'm talking about with the weld circled. Attached Images

5th June 2014, 07:37 PM	#10
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	It arrived today, and boy is that hilt weird. First the dimensions... It's 7mm thick at the base. After the ricasso it tapers to 5mm and stays that way until the false edge at the tip. The blade's 35mm wide at the base, tapers to 32mm after the ricasso, then towards the tip it widens back to 35mm again. There's eyelash marks struck by the hilt, but that's the only mark I can see. The hilt is filled with some shiny metal, maybe zinc. It looks like the hilt was dismantled, filled with zinc, and then put back together again. I don't know what you call it, but the bit of the hilt that's supposed to slide over the scabbard has been pounded down, so it would have never fit in an Indian style scabbard again. Even in this condition the hilt's quite solid and sturdy. The blade's a very heavy, thick, nice piece of steel. It's in pretty good condition except towards the tip where it's pitted. there's a few tiny failed laminations but otherwise it's a very well built blade. It's very slightly hollow on both sides and the edge is still pretty sharp. Is there a snowball's chance in hell the blade is wootz? Should I bother trying to etch it? Attached Images

30th May 2014, 07:02 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I think you're on track with your assessment on this most unusual and apparently altered tulwar as this pommel seems quite disproportionate . Thank you for sharing your preliminary findings and thoughts as well, that is a most helpful approach to initiate discussion ... excellent!!! I am inclined to agree that this 'pommel' seems to be some sort of ersatz replacement using a knob or fixture not intended originally for use on a hilt. It seems that tribal artisans in regions of India's northwest have always been extremely innovative in refurbishing weapons. It would seem that a 'rugged' and rather obvious fabrication like this would be more likely to have been an authentic 'field' adjustment as opposed to a more 'commercial' product. While pretty rough, these kinds of examples are always intriguing, as trying to imagine the circumstances in which it became in its present form and condition lend to fascinating possibilities.

30th May 2014, 08:02 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	It seems that there are a number of examples of tulwar from Afghan regions which are sans pommel disc, and in discussions it was sometimes suggested that Afghans were inclined to have much larger hands than the Indian warriors to the south. Perhaps such replacement or adjustment might have been warranted in accord with these circumstances. It does seem that in those instances that the pommel area was left open, though some of these seem to actually have never had the pommel disc. In the case of the dagger noted, I would likely be more suspicious, but the coincidence seems interesting.

30th May 2014, 09:16 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	The pin through the grip and tang is also a common Afghan feature....look up pulwar also spelled pulouar.

30th May 2014, 10:48 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The pin was also used by the Indians, but it was mostly hidden by the hilt decoration. Jens

1st June 2014, 11:37 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	The solder/whatever in the middle of the hilt is just to fill a casting flaw. spiral

5th June 2014, 10:42 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	If you look at your pictures you will se that they are not too good, would it be possible to get better pictures? You are asking questions, but when the picturtes are bad, it is hard to answer your questions. Jens

5th June 2014, 11:03 PM	#12
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I took these pictures with a pretty good camera but they came out blurry for some reason. I think my hand was shaking. I'll try again tomorrow.

5th June 2014, 11:28 PM	#13
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	The "door knob" pommel is welded on with modern equipment... So Id guess an amalgamation of bits... {Or "associated" , as the poshest auction houses say, knowing most buyers don't understand the reality of that expression. { lots of random different age pieces stuck together with, glue,Weld & even bolts & screws to make a few extra quid out of the junk bin = "associated" I London,Paris & New York.. } Spiral

5th June 2014, 11:58 PM	#14
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	If I may ask, if it was up to you would you leave this frankenstein as it is or would you free the blade and pair it with at $50 hilt from ebay. I am madly in love with this skull crushing blade but the hilt doesn't do anything for me if it isn't historically interesting.

6th June 2014, 02:42 AM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	I don't hold out much hope for any part of the ensemble . Would suggest a more discriminating eye ?

6th June 2014, 04:35 AM	#16
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	With regards to the hilts construction, they are made from 9 pieces typically...rarer examples such as silver ones may also have been made from multiple pieces but when finished would appear as a single piece. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tulwar+hilts Gavin

6th June 2014, 07:57 PM	#18
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Well, I got it for around half the prices of the cheapest Tulwar I've seen go up for auction. I'm just glad it doesn't have "MADE IN INDIA" stamped on it. I've attached some closeups of the blade steel. There does appear to be some layering but I don't see any evidence of a watered steel pattern. I'll give it a few hours in some diluted PCB etchant and see what happens. Attached Images

6th June 2014, 09:52 PM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Gav, thank you for that information and for the link ...that was a great and informative thread and I had forgotten it altogether. I had no idea these hilts were made in 9 pieces! B.L. as far as my opinion on this, I would say leave it alone and focus on the blade, which clearly has its own history before being 'refurbished'. As Spiral has noted, the eloquent smokescreen used by these upper echelon firms use the term 'associated' and often even 'composite' (rather like the term 'antique' describing garage sale junk, just with a higher price). In collectors jargon these kinds of pieces are 'put together' or 'mules'. Indeed in many colonial regions and tribal cultures the enterprise of creating souveniers for tourists as well as occupying forces etc is a thriving commerce. However, to paint this entire strata of arms with the broad brush of tourist junk and dismiss any possibility of genuine tribal use is often a bit arbitrary despite its high probability. In the expanse of Afghan regions into the remote tribal areas of northwest India it remains possible for such ersatz creations to remain in use in at least some degree, and has been the case for many years. Native artisans who produce reproductions or traditional items for commercial purposes are remarkably skilled, and this profoundly rough work to me still seems like field work with pragmatic intent. I have seen 17th century blades mounted with modern, but traditional hilts, which are admittedly less than appealing. However this at least has some age to all components, and in my perception a good context for this fascinating blade. I'd leave it alone, and enjoy imagining the possibilities of the life of the blade in earlier times.

7th June 2014, 12:58 AM	#20
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Jim, I say typically when I refer to 9, there are 8 piece examples, 10, 11 & 12 too....just my observations. Gavin

7th June 2014, 01:10 AM	#21
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Thanks Jim, I think I'll leave it as is. I'd have to double my money into it to get even a basic hilt and then it'd be just another low end Tulwar. As it is, it's interesting at least even if it's ugly. And as you say it shows that it's had an interesting life. I've given it an hour with diluted PCB etchant, nothing interesting's popped up so far. It just turned the blade frosty gray. I'll give it a few more treatments and polish it before I give up. Attached Images