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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Posts: 104
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Hi
I have just purchased this axe, i know they are a mine field but the price was right, i have not got it in hand though so i am limited by the sellers photos, I should have it in a week or so I know it is a palstave axe type, but other than that I know nothing The remnants of the flashing is still on the side of the head but I understand this is normal enough on axes that were just used for shows of wealth rather than a working piece I am in ireland and the seller says it was in an old collection, I have purchased a lot off him before and would trust the individual but I have been plenty wrong in the past on several things All comments welcome but I know it is hard to give full opinion without a lot of analysis Regards Ken |
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#2 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Hi Ken,
I can tell you by experience that, the chance to get the real thing, is extremely remote. I wish you luck with this one ![]() |
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#3 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Posts: 104
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Hi Fernando
I saw your post from a while ago about ones you got in auction and I found it interesting I work in chemistry and have access to metal composition analytical equipment Do you know if there is a distinctive composition that will distinguish old form reproduction or are the reproducers getting the composition correct It was inexpensive enough so I will get the money's worth from the learning experience, I might even get an undergrad practical out of it! Tomorrow I am off to se a blunderbuss, and I am on more comfortable ground with this, hopefully it will be a good purchase, Best regards Ken |
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#4 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Hi Ken,
I am a zero on metalurgies. I had to trust those who had such knowledge, in the first place and, in the end, i met the person who had loan two originals to the guy who atempted and managed to cast copies, from which lot my examples apparently belonged. You are dead right in that blunderbusses are a more comfortable hobby. I hope you acquire the example you talk about ... and show it to us ![]() |
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#5 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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i've heard that the balkans i a good source for chemically patinated bronze mace and axe head repros. most 'roman' bronze items on epray seem to come from there. i bought an 'ancient roman mace head' for about £30, cleaned the green goop off with salt & vinagar, polished it and it made a neat walking stick knob handle. i bought a socketed bronze 'roman' axe head for about the same, it also made a nice walking stick. i left it green. both came from romania &were brand new under the green. found a company that made exact castings of real artifacts, warts, pits, broken bits & all, and fairly cheap. wrote them to ask if they' make me an unbroken unpitted casting. they never replied.
anyhow modern bronzes have a differing copper/tin ratio and some use a dab of aluminum in the mix, phosphorus is also used. a mettalergical analysis might show the mix is modern or not. i doubt the forgers are duplicating exactly the old mix (i hear some had lead &or zinc in as well as tin). you can download a PDF document on the metallurgy of ancient bronze HERE 'ancient' roman bronze mace head walking stick. - top 'anchient roman socket axe' walking stick/fokos. - bottom -it's nice & sharp too ![]() mace head below -after cleaning & before. bronze axe head used on the walking stick. Last edited by kronckew; 9th January 2015 at 12:37 AM. |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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p.s. - here's a palistave axe from a bronze smith here in the UK that conducts 'cast your own' 3-day classes for axes/swords/spearheads a few times a year. been thinking of going. you live in a roundhouse & cook your food over a fire in bronze-age fashion.
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#7 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,217
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What happens when the Hittites knock on the palisade ?
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#8 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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they lose big time. i outnumber them even tho there are more of them. and bronze is better than iron.
the sword in the stone, excalibur was bronze. watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CZQO8q9DYU battle of kadesh 1274 b.c. 20,000 egyptians vs. 23,000 to 50,000 hittites. rameses won on points. at least a draw. great slaughter on both sides. mostly slaughtered hittites tho. hittites sued for peace. intereseting video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4qLhq5V2-o 'nother: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFTAdzHbp2I these were made by my local bronze smith noted earlier. excerpt from a metallurgists dissertation Quote:
Last edited by kronckew; 9th January 2015 at 03:58 PM. |
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#9 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,217
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I will concede that the battle of Kadesh was a draw, especially since the only surviving record was Egyptian (the Record and the Ramesseum), with might have been tilted towards the Pharaoh's advantage.In fact, the "Treaty of Kadesh," was not signed for a number of years after the battle.
It didn't hurt either that Ramses ll, one of the greatest Pharaohs of Egypt, headed the campaigns. |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
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the hittites were a flash in the pan, made a big stink then disappeared. their capital city is in a wasteland, no water or arable land, deserted and abandoned, with very little to show they ever existed apart from the records of their enemies, like egypt, which has existed since history began and seems likely to continue doing so.
they have recently found the (or a) hittite library, or hall of records which was burned as the hittites abandoned the capital which seems to indicate in the found clay tablets that the ruler was overthrown by and murdered by a brother, and this so upset their strict religion and order, they fell apart. |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,217
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You mean like Ramessess lll, murdered by one of his wives and his son Tiye or Akhenaten who was very unpopular and vilified because he had the draconian concept to make his subjects worship one god ; very unpopular !
I think that all ruling dynasties, be they from China, Rome, Egypt, etc. had their share of intrigue. In conclusion I agree that The Egyptian accomplishments surpass those of the Hittites, even though I think iron trumps bronze . |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,167
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i'll agree we can disagree
![]() show me a photo of a 3000 yr. old hittite sword in usable condition. there are many bronze ones that given a scrub & polish would do just as well as when they were born. p.s. - my local bronze-smith (neil) sent me an email tonight that his schedule is packed and he's not taking new orders this quarter. |
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#13 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Ireland
Posts: 104
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Thanks for all the reply s
I will look at the compositions The easiest check would be for presence of aluminium followed By phosphorous, ratios are a bit harder but definitely possible Most tests are destructive but only a mili gram is required so that would be doable I will start a new tread when I have work done, I have just purchased a percussion punt gun and a blunderbuss so I have a lot to do in the study of these, all good problems though Regards to all Ken |
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#14 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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ROYAL COURTS AND FAMILIES WERE WHERE POLITICS AND DIPLOMACY DEVELOPED. WITH ALL THE INTRIGUE, LYING AND BACKSTABBING AND DIRTY DEEDS AND JOCKEYING FOR POWER ITS NO WONDER IT IS STILL A DIRTY GAME TODAY.
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