ANCIENT Indian Weapons (B.C.)

[Steven C.]

Hey guys, for a story I'm working on (I'm a film school student, but I'm simply working on a story for basically any form of media I can put it in) I need to know about ancient (not medieval like Tulwars or katars) weapons of India.

Without revealing too much one of the characters in my story is an Indian warrior (very similar to a ninja or sulsa type assassin, one of the ideas my story uses is the rather convincing theory that Chinese/Japanese martial arts originated in ancient India, which would include ninjutsu, which was brought to Japan by Chinese, so eventually its very likely that it goes back to India from China).

Anyways the era I need information on is anything from around 1200 B.C. to around time of Alexander the Great's invasions. I need example of Indian weapons from this time, especially swords and melee weaponry).

Alot of weapons I was thinking of using, I can't find out if they were around during that period though.. examples are:

Urumi - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urumi

Khukuri , Chakram, bagh-nakh, katar.

Please help! Internet is not helping at all!

[ALEX]

Steven,
The early version of Urumi-shaped sword often appears on ancient (8000-1000 BC) Babylonian and Mesopotamian (Sumerian) stamp cylinders/rolls, which were used just like modern stamps to make impressions on clay tablets.
Originally it was of a solid, not flexible/coiled type, and it is quite possible that later on the same shape was adopted and modified in Asia and/or India.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-512...rticleTypeId=1

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/02/...41.160.192.htm

Good luck with your project.

[Steven C.]

Eh.. how is it an urumi if it's not flexible? And when did the flexible urumi appear?

Also people, please I need more help than that..

[ALEX]

Steven,
My comment was based purely on shape similarities. I just do not know much about these weapons. Hopefully someone else who does will post.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Steven,
Most of the weapons discussed here are more focused on those actually available to collectors, and examples of historical periods relatively recent compared to that of your project. Many of the references we often refer to will have some basic information pertaining to ancient weapons such as,
"Indian Arms and Armour" G.N.Pant ; "The Indian Sword" P. Rawson ; "The Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor" , Stone and certainly a few others. Most of these are often somewhat difficult to obtain and can be expensive so for your purposes possibly interlibrary loan would be best.
Also, while often somewhat elementary in detail on weaponry, the Osprey series such as "Man at Arms" can often be most helpful in establishing good overview in study of historical periods and the armies of the times. There are excellent titles among them that describe and colorfully illustrate many ancient armies including India, Persia and so on. These can be found online and are quite reasonable as they are paperback monographs.

An excellent source for specific questions once you have established certain weapon forms and timeframe would be the arms and armor department at the Metropolitan Museum in New York. As far as the martial arts application pertaining to weapons, the historical data in these would be best found in organizations specific to those disciplines.

Your project sounds intriguing and hopefully these ideas might be of some help. I wish I could offer more detail on the weapons themselves, but the topic is quite broad and most data available is as Alex has noted, mostly applied typologically and from iconographic sources.

Best wishes and good luck on your project,
Jim

[Joe]

These may be akin to what you're looking for, but I don't think that they're quite as ancient as you want.

[Jim McDougall]

Those are great Joe!!! Can you say a little on what these are and where you found them. They are pretty interesting examples and I'd like to follow up on them as well.
Thanks for posting them,
All best regards,
Jim

[Joe]

Thanks Jim. These two came from Hermann Historia, where they were advertised as being ancient Central Indian two-handers, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately, I don't know which auction number they were listed in, so I'm having a tough time finding the original listing...

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for checking that Joe. It seems Hermann Historica does often have great pieces in thier catalogs, and lot of good photos. I only received the flyers which were of course understandably brief in descriptions given the limited space.
I found weapons of this type listed in Stone (p.643) as two handed swords used by Rajputs and Mahrattas, and it is noted that the hollow shafts of the hilts often encased small knives. While the hilts on these examples seem to have disc type elements spaced on the long grips, the example shown in Stone features the fluted brass orbs often seen on them.

It seems these are directly associated with similar two hand weapons with spaced guards from the south and termed 'mel puttah bemoh' (Stone p.444, Egerton 134) with long rapier blades and noted to be from 18th century.

These are very interesting and unusual weapons that seem to have influenced the two hand swords of the Naga in Assam, and illustrate the wide diffusion on weaponry on the Subcontinent. They are however indeed far from the period Steven has inquired on.

All the best,
Jim

[Joe]

Ah, thanks for the correction Jim. I'd love to see the examples you're talking about in Stone's book, maybe you could send me a pm?

And sorry that I couldn't have been of more help, Stephen. I don't seem to have any references for swords in that half of Asia that were around before 500 BC.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Joe,
Actually the caption was correct and Central India was indeed the region of the weapons you illustrated, I should have clarified that in my post. The same type weapon you posted actually appears in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" ( p.94 , 8.51) where he notes that these are actually latter 16th c. to early 17th and from the Deccan in Central India. Perhaps someone who has either of these texts could post illustrations?
Thank you again for posting these, although we have not heard from Steven, I certainly do appreciate your response!
All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

In further examining the descriptions in both Elgood and Stone, it is interesting to note that the swords Joe posted seem closer in form to the mel puttah bemoh (Stone p.444, fig.566) which has a long rapier type blade.
Elgood illustrates one of these swords (p.94, 8.51) and notes a stone image from Virabhadra Temple, Lepakshi (op.cit. p.94, 8.49) that depicts a warrior with a large two handed sword and dating it from the 1530's.

It would seem that these two handed swords were used further back than the example in Stone (dated 18th c.south India attribution ) and the example in Elgood ( shown as Deccani, early 17th c.).

The examples from Hermann Historica appear to be in excavated condition, and the hilt elements quite rudimentary in comparison to the hilts of those shown in Stone and Elgood, which carry a bit more structure. This would suggest that these excavated examples may have been from the earlier period noted by Elgood, and would confirm the use of two handed swords in India into the medieval period.

With these in thier rudimentary form and excavated condition and the examples shown in development in Elgood and Stone, it is interesting to consider not only the use of the two handed sword in India, but the diffusion and development of the form. While that movement seems to be chronologically from the south, into the Deccan and further north with the elaborate Rajput and Mahratta examples more decorative and with the fluted orbs separating the hilts as seen in Stone (p.643 #7) and Elgood (p.95, 8.54), it seems the influence carried into Assam with the Naga two handed dao.

Elgood notes that the two hand form became redundant with the advent of the khanda with basket hilt and projecting spur in the 16th c.

It is always good to have an opportunity to research and discuss the weapons of India and again, I'm glad Joe posted these!

Best regards,
Jim

[olikara]

Jim,
Your comments brought a couple of questions to my mind.

What could be the possible advantages of a warrior using a 2 handed sword?

He can use both the hands to grasp the hilt and thus bring more force into his action. This extra force delivered with a heavier weapon may be used to incapacitate/kill the opponent or maybe even damage/destroy the opponent's weapon. This is a POSITIVE.

But when he uses both his hands, he cannot make use of one hand to possibly hold a shield and deflect the opponents blow. He also loses his freedom of movement. The entire body is flexible when one hand is free. I feel this is a NEGATIVE.

How would you balance the two?

Maybe a warrior can use the Khanda or it's similar types for delivering a final blow on an incapacitated opponent, say like beheading him. But would it be practical for him to use a khanda against a lighter armed warrior using a single handed weapon?

Maybe I am missing something...

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Olikara,
Im glad to see you in on this!
You bring up a very interesting and quite valid question. It would seem that in most cases, these large two handed swords were most likely used in shock action, that is against attacking cavalry to bring down horses. In the melee these huge weapons would indeed be cumbersome and ineffective, and as you point out, the individual would be open to attack.
It would be interesting to hear the opinions of those well versed in the dynamics of martial arts swordplay on this.

Best regards,
Jim