Japanese WWII Side Knives?

laEspadaAncha · 13th December 2010, 10:21 PM

I recently acquired these from the estate of a deceased WWII vet. His widow said he brought these back from Japan, where he had served as part of the occupation force.

Does anybody here have any exposure to these single-bevel Japanese "theater" knives?

My understanding is these were purely utilitarian in purpose, though the spear point example does seem as if it would be rather functional as a fighting knife as well. The non-beveled reverse has a slight hollow grind (concave surface), and it measures over 3mm in thickness (the tanto-tipped knife measures approx. 3 1/2 mm) - on par with other contemporary side knives carried by both Axis and Allied soldiers as well as many of the hunting knives I have. Some cursory research returned several forms of Japanese single-bevel knives used in food preparation, though these don't seem to "neatly" fit into any described types (at least based on blade profile). Could the larger of the two be considered a katakiri-ha tanto?

I'm growing fond of these quickly. I'm so used to seeing katanas, waki's, tantos, and military pattern knives that it's refreshing to come across what appear to be "everyman" knives of Japanese origin.

laEspadaAncha · 14th December 2010, 01:49 AM

Here's pictures of the smaller knife's blade. Looks like a file knife, as if it was made from ground tool steel?

VANDOO · 14th December 2010, 03:19 AM

NOT MY FIELD BUT YOU MIGHT TAKE A LOOK AT JAPANESE KNIVES USED FOR WORKING ON BONSAI TREES SOME OF THEM RESEMBLE THESE ESPECIALY THE SMALLER ONE. GOOD LUCK

Battara · 14th December 2010, 03:37 AM

I think the smaller one is for marking wood when carving.

laEspadaAncha · 14th December 2010, 05:34 AM

Thanks Barry... seems the small one is a bonsai grafting knife. Jose, what did you mean by "marking wood" when carving? One down, one to go...

Rich · 14th December 2010, 11:52 AM

Neither are military knives. The top one is a gardening/bonsai knife; the lower one is a carpenter's knife used to mark and/or make precise cuts for wood working (I have two of them).

Rich S
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

"Never go anywhere without a knife"
- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
-------------------------------------------------------

laEspadaAncha · 14th December 2010, 04:37 PM

Hi Rich,

Thank you for the clarification - I was hoping you might spot this thread. I now better understand Jose's reply as well. Any idea what the kanji represent on either knife?

As mentioned in my OP, I'm still happy to have acquired a Japanese knife that is neither a tanto nor a military pattern dagger/dirk... While lacking the historical affiliation or importance one associates with a tanto, these are more closely related to the utility knives I myself often carry on my belt or clipped to my pocket.

Are older examples of these considered scarce by Japanese blade collectors? As many knives as I've encountered at flea markets, estate sales, shows, and auctions, these are the first examples I have encountered...

Rich · 14th December 2010, 05:17 PM

I'm not aware of anyone who actually collects these. Several sword collectors have picked them up as curios; I actually use mine down in the workshop.
Don't know how far back they were made, but suspect since the Japanese were/are excellent woodworkers, that they've been around a long time. I think the older ones were likely used up and discarded, but that's just speculation. I know the carpenter's knives are still being made and avialable thru several online dealers. Might check Google for Japanese wood working tools. Still a nice find and neat items to have.

Rich S

laEspadaAncha · 14th December 2010, 06:00 PM

I've done some checking myself since picking these up last weekend, and can't find any vintage or antique examples out there. As a blade collector, I find the single-bevel grind interesting... purely functional, it allows for a more acute cutting angle - something I imagine would be of considerable value to someone working wood or grafting a bonsai.

I remember watching a master chopstick maker working at a Japanese garden here in Balboa Park a couple years ago. He was working alongside an apprentice. While well aware of it, I was still impressed by the degree of specialization one encounters in Japanese society. This man was a master at his craft; he had devoted his entire professional life to it. And his craft was to make chopsticks. While I cannot recall the exact appearance of the knife he used to whittle the wood, I do recall wanting one.

It would be nice to be able to attribute these to a maker. As these are in no way related to nihonto, do you have any idea who might be able to translate the kanji for me?

Rich · 14th December 2010, 08:25 PM

I can't get your pic of the kanji to load completely. Imageshack stops and says "done" when only the top Kanji and part of the second are visible. They appear to be stamped rather than carved which would be a more current production. Not unusual, both of mine have stamped signatures. I suspect that given the relatively current vintage of mine and yours that the signatures are pretty meaningless. That is, while they may be a specific name, more than likely the items were factory production and just given a "factory man's" name. Just a guess on that, no solid proof.

Rich

laEspadaAncha · 15th December 2010, 12:05 AM

Hi Rich,

Thanks... Maybe I can email you the pics of the kanji? I agree, they are stamped, not carved, though the larger of the two was definitely hot-stamped, i.e., stamped while the metal was still soft.

Regards,

Chris

Nathaniel · 15th December 2010, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Neither are military knives. The top one is a gardening/bonsai knife; the lower one is a carpenter's knife used to mark and/or make precise cuts for wood working (I have two of them).

Rich S
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

"Never go anywhere without a knife"
- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
-------------------------------------------------------

Here are some more examples of the Japanese wood working knife:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/produ...&dept_id=13221

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/produ...&dept_id=13221

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept....&dept_id=13221

laEspadaAncha · 15th December 2010, 04:03 AM

Hi Nathaniel,

Thanks - I actually found that same website following a couple responses earlier in the thread...

What I can't seem to find, however, are any other earlier examples dating to the mid-century... And given the wide range in price for contemporary examples - ranging from less than twenty dollars to a couple hundred dollars - I am curious to find out more about who (person or factory) is responsible for the creation of these two knives...

13th December 2010, 10:21 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Japanese WWII Side Knives? I recently acquired these from the estate of a deceased WWII vet. His widow said he brought these back from Japan, where he had served as part of the occupation force. Does anybody here have any exposure to these single-bevel Japanese "theater" knives? My understanding is these were purely utilitarian in purpose, though the spear point example does seem as if it would be rather functional as a fighting knife as well. The non-beveled reverse has a slight hollow grind (concave surface), and it measures over 3mm in thickness (the tanto-tipped knife measures approx. 3 1/2 mm) - on par with other contemporary side knives carried by both Axis and Allied soldiers as well as many of the hunting knives I have. Some cursory research returned several forms of Japanese single-bevel knives used in food preparation, though these don't seem to "neatly" fit into any described types (at least based on blade profile). Could the larger of the two be considered a katakiri-ha tanto? I'm growing fond of these quickly. I'm so used to seeing katanas, waki's, tantos, and military pattern knives that it's refreshing to come across what appear to be "everyman" knives of Japanese origin.

15th December 2010, 12:05 AM	#11
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Rich, Thanks... Maybe I can email you the pics of the kanji? I agree, they are stamped, not carved, though the larger of the two was definitely hot-stamped, i.e., stamped while the metal was still soft. Regards, Chris Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 15th December 2010 at 04:26 AM.

14th December 2010, 01:49 AM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Here's pictures of the smaller knife's blade. Looks like a file knife, as if it was made from ground tool steel?

14th December 2010, 03:19 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NOT MY FIELD BUT YOU MIGHT TAKE A LOOK AT JAPANESE KNIVES USED FOR WORKING ON BONSAI TREES SOME OF THEM RESEMBLE THESE ESPECIALY THE SMALLER ONE. GOOD LUCK

14th December 2010, 03:37 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I think the smaller one is for marking wood when carving.

14th December 2010, 05:34 AM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Thanks Barry... seems the small one is a bonsai grafting knife. Jose, what did you mean by "marking wood" when carving? One down, one to go...

14th December 2010, 11:52 AM	#6
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Neither are military knives. The top one is a gardening/bonsai knife; the lower one is a carpenter's knife used to mark and/or make precise cuts for wood working (I have two of them). Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm "Never go anywhere without a knife" - Leroy Jethro Gibbs -------------------------------------------------------

14th December 2010, 04:37 PM	#7
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Rich, Thank you for the clarification - I was hoping you might spot this thread. I now better understand Jose's reply as well. Any idea what the kanji represent on either knife? As mentioned in my OP, I'm still happy to have acquired a Japanese knife that is neither a tanto nor a military pattern dagger/dirk... While lacking the historical affiliation or importance one associates with a tanto, these are more closely related to the utility knives I myself often carry on my belt or clipped to my pocket. Are older examples of these considered scarce by Japanese blade collectors? As many knives as I've encountered at flea markets, estate sales, shows, and auctions, these are the first examples I have encountered...

14th December 2010, 05:17 PM	#8
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I'm not aware of anyone who actually collects these. Several sword collectors have picked them up as curios; I actually use mine down in the workshop. Don't know how far back they were made, but suspect since the Japanese were/are excellent woodworkers, that they've been around a long time. I think the older ones were likely used up and discarded, but that's just speculation. I know the carpenter's knives are still being made and avialable thru several online dealers. Might check Google for Japanese wood working tools. Still a nice find and neat items to have. Rich S

14th December 2010, 06:00 PM	#9
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I've done some checking myself since picking these up last weekend, and can't find any vintage or antique examples out there. As a blade collector, I find the single-bevel grind interesting... purely functional, it allows for a more acute cutting angle - something I imagine would be of considerable value to someone working wood or grafting a bonsai. I remember watching a master chopstick maker working at a Japanese garden here in Balboa Park a couple years ago. He was working alongside an apprentice. While well aware of it, I was still impressed by the degree of specialization one encounters in Japanese society. This man was a master at his craft; he had devoted his entire professional life to it. And his craft was to make chopsticks. While I cannot recall the exact appearance of the knife he used to whittle the wood, I do recall wanting one. It would be nice to be able to attribute these to a maker. As these are in no way related to nihonto, do you have any idea who might be able to translate the kanji for me?

14th December 2010, 08:25 PM	#10
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I can't get your pic of the kanji to load completely. Imageshack stops and says "done" when only the top Kanji and part of the second are visible. They appear to be stamped rather than carved which would be a more current production. Not unusual, both of mine have stamped signatures. I suspect that given the relatively current vintage of mine and yours that the signatures are pretty meaningless. That is, while they may be a specific name, more than likely the items were factory production and just given a "factory man's" name. Just a guess on that, no solid proof. Rich

15th December 2010, 04:03 AM	#13
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nathaniel, Thanks - I actually found that same website following a couple responses earlier in the thread... What I can't seem to find, however, are any other earlier examples dating to the mid-century... And given the wide range in price for contemporary examples - ranging from less than twenty dollars to a couple hundred dollars - I am curious to find out more about who (person or factory) is responsible for the creation of these two knives...