Talismanic symbols?

VVV · 4th December 2006, 02:35 PM

Maybe we could have this thread to gather meanings of different Talismanic inscriptions (inspired by Bill's Metaphysical thread)?
My contribution is this, quite often seen, inlay on a Moro Kris.
I haven't found out the meaning of it yet, have you?

Michael

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2006, 02:00 AM

Hi Michael,
This is an excellent topic for a thread!!!
Unbelievable though that there are no responses from the Keris Kadre' out there to say more on this unusual marking!!

C'mon keris guys, I'd like to know more on this, and hopefully some more markings for discussion.

The subject of talismanic markings on ethnographic blades is pretty vast, so I know there should be lots of entries.
Best regards,
Jim

kino · 7th December 2006, 06:53 AM

A Moro Kris inscripted on both sides. Many have probably seen the other inscripted side of the blade. Less have seen this side. To my knowledge Cato
has unlocked the meaning of the script. Refer to pages 21 (plate #8), & 102 of Cato's book.

Second photo is nearest the tip of the blade. Sorry for the poor quality photos, as to photographing it is difficult.

kai · 7th December 2006, 09:40 AM

It's a pity but there seems to be very little documented on Moro talismanic symbols. BTW, what happened to the forumites stationed on Jolo? Maybe they could try to research what knowledge may have survived locally?

Here are 2 more inlaid kris for reference:

Kalis Seko (Sulu)

Luma (Maguindanao?)

(tip towards the right; more pics: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1243)

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 7th December 2006, 11:22 AM

Kai,

On your Luma the vegetative vine motif usually represent the creative forces.
The end looks like a rounded version of the old trident symbol.
Probably it's then Shiva's trident from the old beliefs still existing within Folk Islam?
If so one mening of the inlay could be that it's directing strong metaphysical forces towards the direction of the point (=opponent)?
An alternative meaning I have heard is that some people think it's a Naga and the end is a tongue?

Michael

Spunjer · 7th December 2006, 02:00 PM

a sundang with some serious agimat engravings on one side. just like this one on macario sakay's bulletproof vest...

VVV · 7th December 2006, 02:23 PM

Ron,

Interesting Sundang.
Have you found out anything about the meaning of the symbols, except that it's of protective character?

Michael

Spunjer · 7th December 2006, 04:15 PM

Michael,
it's the jesuit order's symbol...

Jens Nordlunde · 7th December 2006, 04:51 PM

I will not bore you with writing about Indian talismanic markings, as it is not what this thread is about, there is however one thing which have kept me wondering. In none of the threads about krises that I have seen, is mentioned that is was also used in south India (see Robert Elgood – Hindu Arms and Ritual). I wonder why, and I think you would be able to find many interesting markings on krises from India.

The snake is another matter, as you will find it in most, if not in all, religions of the area, plus in a lot of other places, if you read about the peoples/clans/tribes saga about how the Earth was populated – so no wonder that the snake is an important mark.

In The Wonder that was India, A.L.Basham writes about the fish. ‘The fish (Matsya). When the earth was overwhelmed by a universal flood Visnu took the form of a fish, who first warned Manu (the Hindu Adam) of the impending danger, and then carried him, his family, and the great Sages in a ship, fastened to a horn on his head. He also saved the Vedas from the flood. ……’

Many of these old stories from the first religions will be recognised from religion to religion, and the fish was one of the scared marks used by several religions. Think of the trisulas, used over a very big area. Flowers used, were decorative, but I also think they represented something else, maybe a deity. Have a look at this hilt, with two fish, a big flower, on the other side two big flowers, and four trisulas, on on each quillon and on on each langet.

Sorry, I think I got carried away.

VVV · 7th December 2006, 05:06 PM

Jens,

Beautiful and interesting hilt!

I agree that the same kind of myths are found in a lot of different cultures and religions.
And several of the old talismanic symbols found in f.i. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines have Indian origin.
So please bore us some more.

Michael

Jens Nordlunde · 7th December 2006, 06:26 PM

Michael, du bad selv om det.

Let’s go to Nepal. I have a kukri, only one, but I like it a lot. As I don’t know much about these weapons I asked John Powell, and he very helpfully gave me the following text.
“The fish on a kukri is called ’matsaya’ in Nepali, and is very common. They represent the first incarnation of Vishnu, and are associated directly with him.
’Suvarna matsya’ are the twin golden fish facing each other, and symbolize being rescued from the ocean of misery of earthly existence.
The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs.

The ’Hanuman’ is a half god . Half monkey and half human, he is portrayed in different manners and takes on a variety of positions.” (try to Google/Wikipedia. JN).

The Hanuman you can find on the top mount (the triangle one), the two golden fishes in the middle and the peacocks on the lower mount.

You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India.

Jens

VVV · 7th December 2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Michael, du bad selv om det.
...The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs....
You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India.

Jens

Jens, that's OK

As you probably know other possible reasons for having a peacock on a weapon is that it's the mount of the war-god Skanda (aka Karttikeya, the son of Shiva and Parvati) as well as a Hindu symbol of immortality.

The reason I didn't answer your Indian keris question is that I neither have the book you referred to nor know anything about Indian kerises.
Maybe you can post some examples on the separate Keris forum and hopefully activate Alan Maisey on this interesting issue?

Michael

kai · 7th December 2006, 08:57 PM

Hello Jens,

Thanks for bringing this up again! Could you share some examples of Indian blades which you refer to as kris/keris-like?

It's certainly a matter of definition but I have yet to see an Indian example (either extant or recognizable from artwork) which could convincingly argued to be a direct ancestor of the Southeast Asian keris. I have no problems to believe that the idea of wavy blades got carried with Hindu culture to SE Asia but early keris seem to have straight blades...

Also there are quite a few swords with flaring out bases vaguely resembling the gonjo in keris. However, I have yet to see an asymmetrical (not to mention separately forged) gonjo in Indian blades. Moreover, this broad base is part of the hilt rather than the blade which makes for a very different production process. So while I can see some similarities I'm far from convinced that these Indian pieces are really related to keris.

Regards,
Kai

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2006, 04:56 PM

Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise.

A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it?

Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.

Yustas · 9th December 2006, 04:55 AM

Foud intresting resource about symbolism. Bunch of drawings, they go back to pre-scythian times. They may be usefull for reading old signs from ancient pieces of history.
http://www.aratta-ukraine.com/symbol_ua.php?id=1&page=1

Here are two samples attached.

Rick · 9th December 2006, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise.

A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it?

Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.

Jens,

What are your beliefs about the three dots?
To me they suggest the trident.

Jens Nordlunde · 10th December 2006, 03:35 PM

Yustas,

Thank you for your link, it is interesting to see the different decorations used in Ukraine, as some of the old decorations were used over a very large area. The question is, did the same decoration, used in different places, have the same meaning?

Rick,

To me the three dots are either talismanic and/or religious as I think they have been used in two different ways.

The big triangle (first picture). There is only one triangle, and it always has the base in direction of the hilt. The dots can be like on the picture or bigger, sometimes with inlay. I think this could be religious, maybe representing Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva, but I don’t know.

The small triangles like on the second picture starting and ending another decoration, here ‘eyelashes’, but I have also seem the small triangles at the start and end of fullers. This I think is more likely something talismanic, as if the ‘eyelashes’ ‘hide’ a message, and the triangles close the openings at the top and bottom – again pure guessing at the moment.

I hope we will find the answer one day, as I am sure it must be out there somewhere. To me it is strange that we, so far, have not found any explanation of the meaning, as the soldiers coming to India seeing these markings must have taken an interest in them, drawn them, and maybe even written an article about Indian markings – but where?

VVV · 10th December 2006, 09:12 PM

Jens and Rick,

You often see this triangular dot pattern on Sumatran weapons too.

I am also guessing but I think it represents Mata Shiva, the 3 eyes of Shiva (2 regular horisontal eyes and one eye above in the forehead).
Maybe combined with the Lingam?
A triangle pointing up is a Hindu symbol of the Lingam (down is of course Yoni).
In the case you describe the Shivaistic male forces of the Lingam is pointing towards the enemy.
But because of the dots, instead of the fully drawn triangle, I think the main meaning is Mata Shiva and the secondary meaning is the Lingam.

Some other explanations could be the trinity of the main gods, as you suggest.
Mahadeva in which the three gods of the Trimurti are all seen as aspects of Shiva.
And then we have f.i. the three aspects of creation, preservation and destruction.

Michael

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2006, 01:42 PM

Michael,

Interesting theory you have, and you could be right. So, in theory, we both believe that the big triangle is religious, but what about the small triangles? I don’t think they are religious marks, but I don’t know what their meaning is. Do you also see them on weapons from Sumatra?

VVV · 11th December 2006, 02:03 PM

Jens,

I have so far only seen the single dot triangle on Sumatran weapons.
And in all cases on the tip of the scabbard, not on the blades where other kind of talismanic inscriptions are used, usually Muslim.
The several small triangles probably are related to the large one but I have no idea how?

Michael

PS The example below is an early 20th C Aceh small parang with the triangle at the scabbard and Quranic writing in the fuller.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2006, 03:47 PM

Hi Michael,

Thank you for showing the picture, i have never seen the triangle on a scabard before.

VVV · 3rd April 2008, 12:27 PM

I think it would be nice to reactivate this talismanic thread.
Having now read Indian Ritual and Belief; The Keys of Power by Abbot (recommended to me as "The Bible of Indian Magic"
by a university professor specialised in Indian religions) I suspect that these symbols are intended to avert the evil eye.
The belief of the evil eye (Sanskrit Drshti) is found among both the Hindu and the Muslim Indians.
Among Hindus I suspect that it's related to the concept of Darshan(a), visions of the Divine (as the opposite).
Both the eyelash, crescent and dots are talismanic symbols to protect from the evil eye.
BUT usually there are either 5 (=fingers of the hand to blind the eye), a pair (=2 eyes) or one (a counter eye) dots?

Michael

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd April 2008, 04:49 PM

Hi Michael,

It is an interesting thread, and I hope others will join in. Stephan Markel, at Los Angeles County Museum of Art, published an article in Jewellery Studies, vol. 10, 2004, where he writes ‘ The motif, shown in the centre and neck of the Taipei pot [shown in the article], is a round, broad leafed plant form with generally five, but sometimes three, four, or six petals terminating in a jagged edge. It is clearly different in botanical structure from the poppy flower portrayed frequently in Mughal art’.

The interesting thing is that when it comes to floral decoration, it seems as if the artist had a lot of artistic freedom, but the same, surely would not count for religious or talismanic decorations. The attached shows what I believe to be the Mughal inspired poppies, looking quite different from the poppies he describes on the Taipei pot.

Flavio · 4th April 2008, 11:54 AM

Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much

Jens Nordlunde · 4th April 2008, 02:07 PM

Flavio,
To me it looks more like the attached. Some call it a cypress, and others The Tree of Life.

Flavio · 4th April 2008, 02:58 PM

Hi Jens!

What I found difficult is to understand which symbols are only decorations and which are talismanic symbols....

Thank you

Jens Nordlunde · 4th April 2008, 03:30 PM

Hi Flavio,
Confused - that is nothing compared to what I am

.
The way I see it, there are three different kinds, decoration, symbolic and talismanic, and don't mix the last two, as they may not have anything to do with each other.

Battara · 4th April 2008, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much

I remember this one. Actually it is both. Through use of okir (stylized vegitation motifs) this is a stylized naga - snake - with a tongue. It is to empower the owner and make the piece more deadly.

Flavio · 4th April 2008, 07:09 PM

Thank you Jose

This symbols are on a dha... some kind of SSSS...

Jens Nordlunde · 4th April 2008, 07:14 PM

Battara, this is interesting, do you remember where you saw this?
If, possible at all, these decorations can mean different things, and time is running out fast, if we want to know what they meant - if it is not too late already. There still are palm leaves, not yet translated, which may cast light on this - but when will they be translated, and if they do, will we know about it?
Btw The Tree of Life is sometimes also called the Kundalini Flame, and both have to do with Yoga.

4th December 2006, 02:35 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Talismanic symbols? Maybe we could have this thread to gather meanings of different Talismanic inscriptions (inspired by Bill's Metaphysical thread)? My contribution is this, quite often seen, inlay on a Moro Kris. I haven't found out the meaning of it yet, have you? Michael Attached Images

7th December 2006, 06:53 AM	#3
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	A Moro Kris inscripted on both sides. Many have probably seen the other inscripted side of the blade. Less have seen this side. To my knowledge Cato has unlocked the meaning of the script. Refer to pages 21 (plate #8), & 102 of Cato's book. Second photo is nearest the tip of the blade. Sorry for the poor quality photos, as to photographing it is difficult. Attached Images

7th December 2006, 02:00 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	a sundang with some serious agimat engravings on one side. just like this one on macario sakay's bulletproof vest... Attached Images

7th December 2006, 04:51 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I will not bore you with writing about Indian talismanic markings, as it is not what this thread is about, there is however one thing which have kept me wondering. In none of the threads about krises that I have seen, is mentioned that is was also used in south India (see Robert Elgood – Hindu Arms and Ritual). I wonder why, and I think you would be able to find many interesting markings on krises from India. The snake is another matter, as you will find it in most, if not in all, religions of the area, plus in a lot of other places, if you read about the peoples/clans/tribes saga about how the Earth was populated – so no wonder that the snake is an important mark. In The Wonder that was India, A.L.Basham writes about the fish. ‘The fish (Matsya). When the earth was overwhelmed by a universal flood Visnu took the form of a fish, who first warned Manu (the Hindu Adam) of the impending danger, and then carried him, his family, and the great Sages in a ship, fastened to a horn on his head. He also saved the Vedas from the flood. ……’ Many of these old stories from the first religions will be recognised from religion to religion, and the fish was one of the scared marks used by several religions. Think of the trisulas, used over a very big area. Flowers used, were decorative, but I also think they represented something else, maybe a deity. Have a look at this hilt, with two fish, a big flower, on the other side two big flowers, and four trisulas, on on each quillon and on on each langet. Sorry, I think I got carried away. Attached Images

7th December 2006, 06:26 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Michael, du bad selv om det. Let’s go to Nepal. I have a kukri, only one, but I like it a lot. As I don’t know much about these weapons I asked John Powell, and he very helpfully gave me the following text. “The fish on a kukri is called ’matsaya’ in Nepali, and is very common. They represent the first incarnation of Vishnu, and are associated directly with him. ’Suvarna matsya’ are the twin golden fish facing each other, and symbolize being rescued from the ocean of misery of earthly existence. The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs. The ’Hanuman’ is a half god . Half monkey and half human, he is portrayed in different manners and takes on a variety of positions.” (try to Google/Wikipedia. JN). The Hanuman you can find on the top mount (the triangle one), the two golden fishes in the middle and the peacocks on the lower mount. You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India. Jens Attached Images

7th December 2006, 02:00 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Hi Michael, This is an excellent topic for a thread!!! Unbelievable though that there are no responses from the Keris Kadre' out there to say more on this unusual marking!! C'mon keris guys, I'd like to know more on this, and hopefully some more markings for discussion. The subject of talismanic markings on ethnographic blades is pretty vast, so I know there should be lots of entries. Best regards, Jim

7th December 2006, 09:40 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	It's a pity but there seems to be very little documented on Moro talismanic symbols. BTW, what happened to the forumites stationed on Jolo? Maybe they could try to research what knowledge may have survived locally? Here are 2 more inlaid kris for reference: Kalis Seko (Sulu) Luma (Maguindanao?) (tip towards the right; more pics: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1243) Regards, Kai

7th December 2006, 11:22 AM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Kai, On your Luma the vegetative vine motif usually represent the creative forces. The end looks like a rounded version of the old trident symbol. Probably it's then Shiva's trident from the old beliefs still existing within Folk Islam? If so one mening of the inlay could be that it's directing strong metaphysical forces towards the direction of the point (=opponent)? An alternative meaning I have heard is that some people think it's a Naga and the end is a tongue? Michael

7th December 2006, 02:23 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Ron, Interesting Sundang. Have you found out anything about the meaning of the symbols, except that it's of protective character? Michael

7th December 2006, 04:15 PM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Michael, it's the jesuit order's symbol...

7th December 2006, 05:06 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Jens, Beautiful and interesting hilt! I agree that the same kind of myths are found in a lot of different cultures and religions. And several of the old talismanic symbols found in f.i. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines have Indian origin. So please bore us some more. Michael

7th December 2006, 08:57 PM	#13
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Jens, Thanks for bringing this up again! Could you share some examples of Indian blades which you refer to as kris/keris-like? It's certainly a matter of definition but I have yet to see an Indian example (either extant or recognizable from artwork) which could convincingly argued to be a direct ancestor of the Southeast Asian keris. I have no problems to believe that the idea of wavy blades got carried with Hindu culture to SE Asia but early keris seem to have straight blades... Also there are quite a few swords with flaring out bases vaguely resembling the gonjo in keris. However, I have yet to see an asymmetrical (not to mention separately forged) gonjo in Indian blades. Moreover, this broad base is part of the hilt rather than the blade which makes for a very different production process. So while I can see some similarities I'm far from convinced that these Indian pieces are really related to keris. Regards, Kai

8th December 2006, 04:56 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise. A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it? Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.

9th December 2006, 04:55 AM	#15
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Ancient symbols Foud intresting resource about symbolism. Bunch of drawings, they go back to pre-scythian times. They may be usefull for reading old signs from ancient pieces of history. http://www.aratta-ukraine.com/symbol_ua.php?id=1&page=1 Here are two samples attached. Attached Images

10th December 2006, 03:35 PM	#17
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yustas, Thank you for your link, it is interesting to see the different decorations used in Ukraine, as some of the old decorations were used over a very large area. The question is, did the same decoration, used in different places, have the same meaning? Rick, To me the three dots are either talismanic and/or religious as I think they have been used in two different ways. The big triangle (first picture). There is only one triangle, and it always has the base in direction of the hilt. The dots can be like on the picture or bigger, sometimes with inlay. I think this could be religious, maybe representing Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva, but I don’t know. The small triangles like on the second picture starting and ending another decoration, here ‘eyelashes’, but I have also seem the small triangles at the start and end of fullers. This I think is more likely something talismanic, as if the ‘eyelashes’ ‘hide’ a message, and the triangles close the openings at the top and bottom – again pure guessing at the moment. I hope we will find the answer one day, as I am sure it must be out there somewhere. To me it is strange that we, so far, have not found any explanation of the meaning, as the soldiers coming to India seeing these markings must have taken an interest in them, drawn them, and maybe even written an article about Indian markings – but where? Attached Images

10th December 2006, 09:12 PM	#18
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Jens and Rick, You often see this triangular dot pattern on Sumatran weapons too. I am also guessing but I think it represents Mata Shiva, the 3 eyes of Shiva (2 regular horisontal eyes and one eye above in the forehead). Maybe combined with the Lingam? A triangle pointing up is a Hindu symbol of the Lingam (down is of course Yoni). In the case you describe the Shivaistic male forces of the Lingam is pointing towards the enemy. But because of the dots, instead of the fully drawn triangle, I think the main meaning is Mata Shiva and the secondary meaning is the Lingam. Some other explanations could be the trinity of the main gods, as you suggest. Mahadeva in which the three gods of the Trimurti are all seen as aspects of Shiva. And then we have f.i. the three aspects of creation, preservation and destruction. Michael Last edited by VVV; 10th December 2006 at 10:01 PM. Reason: added alternative explanations

11th December 2006, 01:42 PM	#19
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Michael, Interesting theory you have, and you could be right. So, in theory, we both believe that the big triangle is religious, but what about the small triangles? I don’t think they are religious marks, but I don’t know what their meaning is. Do you also see them on weapons from Sumatra? Attached Images

11th December 2006, 02:03 PM	#20
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Jens, I have so far only seen the single dot triangle on Sumatran weapons. And in all cases on the tip of the scabbard, not on the blades where other kind of talismanic inscriptions are used, usually Muslim. The several small triangles probably are related to the large one but I have no idea how? Michael PS The example below is an early 20th C Aceh small parang with the triangle at the scabbard and Quranic writing in the fuller. Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 11th December 2006 at 02:09 PM. Reason: added example

11th December 2006, 03:47 PM	#21
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Michael, Thank you for showing the picture, i have never seen the triangle on a scabard before.

3rd April 2008, 12:27 PM	#22
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I think it would be nice to reactivate this talismanic thread. Having now read Indian Ritual and Belief; The Keys of Power by Abbot (recommended to me as "The Bible of Indian Magic" by a university professor specialised in Indian religions) I suspect that these symbols are intended to avert the evil eye. The belief of the evil eye (Sanskrit Drshti) is found among both the Hindu and the Muslim Indians. Among Hindus I suspect that it's related to the concept of Darshan(a), visions of the Divine (as the opposite). Both the eyelash, crescent and dots are talismanic symbols to protect from the evil eye. BUT usually there are either 5 (=fingers of the hand to blind the eye), a pair (=2 eyes) or one (a counter eye) dots? Michael

3rd April 2008, 04:49 PM	#23
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Michael, It is an interesting thread, and I hope others will join in. Stephan Markel, at Los Angeles County Museum of Art, published an article in Jewellery Studies, vol. 10, 2004, where he writes ‘ The motif, shown in the centre and neck of the Taipei pot [shown in the article], is a round, broad leafed plant form with generally five, but sometimes three, four, or six petals terminating in a jagged edge. It is clearly different in botanical structure from the poppy flower portrayed frequently in Mughal art’. The interesting thing is that when it comes to floral decoration, it seems as if the artist had a lot of artistic freedom, but the same, surely would not count for religious or talismanic decorations. The attached shows what I believe to be the Mughal inspired poppies, looking quite different from the poppies he describes on the Taipei pot. Attached Images

4th April 2008, 11:54 AM	#24
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much Attached Images

4th April 2008, 02:07 PM	#25
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Flavio, To me it looks more like the attached. Some call it a cypress, and others The Tree of Life. Attached Images

4th April 2008, 02:58 PM	#26
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Jens! What I found difficult is to understand which symbols are only decorations and which are talismanic symbols.... Thank you

4th April 2008, 03:30 PM	#27
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Flavio, Confused - that is nothing compared to what I am. The way I see it, there are three different kinds, decoration, symbolic and talismanic, and don't mix the last two, as they may not have anything to do with each other.

4th April 2008, 07:09 PM	#29
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you Jose This symbols are on a dha... some kind of SSSS... Attached Images

4th April 2008, 07:14 PM	#30
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Battara, this is interesting, do you remember where you saw this? If, possible at all, these decorations can mean different things, and time is running out fast, if we want to know what they meant - if it is not too late already. There still are palm leaves, not yet translated, which may cast light on this - but when will they be translated, and if they do, will we know about it? Btw The Tree of Life is sometimes also called the Kundalini Flame, and both have to do with Yoga.