Afghan Pistol

Kubur · 20th June 2015, 08:24 PM

Hi Guys,
Impossible to find a good thread on the Afghan pistols.
I know that they are quite common, but I don't think that's fair to ignore them. They are nice guns like the Jezails... I post one recently sold, do you have any of these?
Kubur

Kubur · 20th June 2015, 08:28 PM

Another one...

AJ1356 · 21st June 2015, 04:07 AM

There may have been afghan muzzle roader pistols at some point or might have been captured or trade British pistols, since there are drawings that show them. Even back in 2002 when everything else was somewhat cheaper, original pistols were hard to find and super expesive. This was a really nice replica, much nicer that most I have seen.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2015, 06:33 PM

This is indeed a very attractive example of the commercial products of the Khyber regions, and the MOP inlay is much like what is applied to the 'camel guns' (jezails) .
This, like most of the other pistols usually seen, is a copy of the British cavalry pistols of the mid 19th c which were most often percussion (many to India were indeed flintlock as seen in native regts) As can be seen here, the lock is a flintlock which typically is argued as preferred as they could be kept serviceable more easily than percussion, and caps were hard to come by.
The 'rampant lion' mark here became the mark of the East India Co. around 1816-20s. The irregular date stamp is correctly positioned for the early model pistols which used the familiar quadranted heart shape of the EIC, however is of course incongruent.

The date is clearly post EIC, as after the 1857 rebellion, the company was nationalized, and by 1874 defunct.

While these features of course add to the attractive appearance alluding to authenticity, they are clear indicators of the fact this is indeed a 'Khyber copy', and the skills of these artisans.

rickystl · 21st June 2015, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Guys,
Impossible to find a good thread on the Afghan pistols.
I know that they are quite common, but I don't think that's fair to ignore them. They are nice guns like the Jezails... I post one recently sold, do you have any of these?
Kubur

Hi Kubur.
No, I don't have an original Afghan decorated East India type pistol, but wish I did. It's one of the few guns I don't have. And I've never seen one come up for sale that wasn't a Tourist item, or a Kyber Pass replica as mentioned above. I would even like to have a good Kyber Pass replica that I could re-work into a shooter.

Like the first one posted above. Some comments on both pistols above:
First Pistol: Note that both the trigger and trigger guard are unfinished brass castings that are not polished out and still show their casting seams. Also from the photo of the muzzle end, the barrel looks like a piece of thick pipe with the edges crudely filed smooth. Not made like a tapered gun barrel. Still, a nice Kyber made replica. Wish I had seen it.
Second Pistol: Again, the crude trigger and unfinished trigger guard. Note also the hammer, frizzen, and frizzen spring attached with nails/pins versus screws.
Rick.

Kubur · 22nd June 2015, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This, like most of the other pistols usually seen, is a copy of the British cavalry pistols of the mid 19th c which were most often percussion (many to India were indeed flintlock as seen in native regts)
While these features of course add to the attractive appearance alluding to authenticity, they are clear indicators of the fact this is indeed a 'Khyber copy', and the skills of these artisans.

Dear Jim,
Thank you for these historical informations. It's very interesting as up to now I had only one page to read in Tirri's book... Tirri wrote that the British established some factories in Persia. Would it be possible that the khyber guns were made in Persia and decorated in the khyber pass?

Regards,
Kubur

Kubur · 22nd June 2015, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.
Some comments on both pistols above:
First Pistol: Note that both the trigger and trigger guard are unfinished brass castings that are not polished out and still show their casting seams. Also from the photo of the muzzle end, the barrel looks like a piece of thick pipe with the edges crudely filed smooth. Not made like a tapered gun barrel. Still, a nice Kyber made replica. Wish I had seen it.
Second Pistol: Again, the crude trigger and unfinished trigger guard. Note also the hammer, frizzen, and frizzen spring attached with nails/pins versus screws.
Rick.

Dear Rick,
Thank you for these technical comments. I missed one day a good one a percussion pistol with a beautiful damas barrel. I will receive in the next few days a khyber one like the ones that i posted. All the best, Kubur

Kubur · 22nd June 2015, 10:44 PM

The Persian copy sold by a famous dealer

rickystl · 24th June 2015, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Rick,
Thank you for these technical comments. I missed one day a good one a percussion pistol with a beautiful damas barrel. I will receive in the next few days a khyber one like the ones that i posted. All the best, Kubur

Hi Kubur.
Please Post after you receive the pistol. Thanks.
Rick.

Shakethetrees · 24th June 2015, 08:21 PM

Not exactly the same type as the one posted earlier, but used on opposite sides in the same battles.

This pistol was of a type that was issued to an H.E.I.C. Cavalry unit that, incidentally still exists today in the Indian Army, but with a different name.

There are published images of prints showing various H.E.I.C. Cavalry uniforms with similar, if not identical, pistols being worn in a sash. The distinctive lion head butt cap stands out.

This particular style pistol was purchased for the unit circa 1849 or thereabout. As the name was modified or changed regularly these dates can be narrowed down pretty closely.

It is of dueling pistol quality with a Damascus barrel, serial numbered 26. All mounts are white brass.

During a phase of what was known as the "Great Game", a power struggle in South Asia between Britain, Russia, and Persia that still has repercussions today, the British sent a number of units to Persia and engaged them in several battles.

During the battle of Kooshab happened one of the great cavalry charges of the 19th century, the Poonah Irregular Horse, along with several other regiments cut the Persian army to ribbons, virtually ruining the First Kusgai Regiment of Fars.

This is the very short version. A book came out that's still available on Amazon called, "John Company's Last War" that will fill in all the details, as well as various useful Wikipedia articles.

Shakethetrees · 24th June 2015, 08:32 PM

Several more bits.

The gun is marked on the top barrel flat to Garden and Son, 200 Piccadilly, London. This company was a fancy leather goods and saddle maker and did not make any weapons. It was actually made in Birmingham, England by Harrington and Scott. The serial numbers (or assembly numbers) are struck inside the barrel channel on the stock and on the underside of the barrel.

I have a more extensive article in the works on this pistol, and whenever I can get the time (and motivation!) to finish it up and send it round to a publisher, I will post notice of it here if there's interest.

One thing I need is to go to Woolwich Arsenal in London to search out a few images of the period uniforms showing this gun being worn. I know they're there, but I need to get rights to use them!

rickystl · 28th June 2015, 05:23 PM

Super interesting gun and history. Thanks for Posting. Rick.

Jim McDougall · 28th June 2015, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Jim,
Thank you for these historical informations. It's very interesting as up to now I had only one page to read in Tirri's book... Tirri wrote that the British established some factories in Persia. Would it be possible that the khyber guns were made in Persia and decorated in the khyber pass?

Regards,
Kubur

You are most welcome Kubur! and again, thank you for these great postings. Also nicely done on the pages on the Persian connection.
The Tirri book is a great collectors handbook, nicely illustrated but seriously lacking in text and explanatory detail in my opinion. I still consider it an outstanding resource visually.
Actually in addition to the British participation in the Persian enterprises in arms, they were very active in Afghanistan, notably Kabul, where they subsidized the Machin Khana factory. Though here the focus was on the Enfield rifles and some bayonets and edged weapons, one cannot help but wonder if any of these pistols might have been produced there.
The flintlock remained a favored weapon in tribal units, even in the fascinating 'irregular' regiments of cavalry until end of the 19th c.

The 'Poonah' horse is a fascinating unit among the very exciting study of the colorful cavalry regiments of the British Raj. When I first began collecting swords back in the 60s it was all about the British cavalry swords, and soon focused on these native regiments. Most intriguing are the hybrid weapons such as tulwars with British blades etc.

The 'Great Game' indeed was a culmination of world powers in this 'cockpit of Europe' in the 19th century, which had echoed the same kinds of conflicts through the centuries there in these Central Asian regions. As well noted, it continues as we speak, and I have had a son; son in law and grandson, all having served in Afghanistan over the past decade. I could never have imagined that when I began studying these regions almost 50 years ago!

'Shake the Trees'....absolutely outstanding data, well researched and presented...thank you!

Best regards,
Jim

rickystl · 18th July 2015, 06:43 PM

"BUMP"
This being a fairly recent Thread, I thought I would bump this forward and add a new addition I just received this week. And this one is in percussion, with all the hallmarks of a Kyber made gun. All iron mounted. Missing it's nose cap, a couple of the white bone inlys, some stock damage, etc.

The lock is complete and in working order, but the mainspring is a little weak. What looks like a stud for what once may have been a swivel ramrod, actually has a small piece of broken chain in it. And the hole looks too small for a pin for a swivel rod.

Not sure. There are multiple marks of the same stamp on the breech and tang. Have no idea what it means. This gun looks like it's seen a lot of action. I do plan on having it restored, but keeping within the overall integrity of the piece. I'll post BEFORE and AFTER pictures at a later date.
This piece does fill a void in my collection. These Afghan pistols, even in Kyber type construction, seem hard to come by. So I'm happy to get it. Here are a few pics. Rick.

kahnjar1 · 18th July 2015, 08:28 PM

Hi Rick,
Interesting piece and look forward to seeing it restored.
You make mention of marks on the breech and tang.......can you show us these please.
Stu

rickystl · 18th July 2015, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rick,
Interesting piece and look forward to seeing it restored.
You make mention of marks on the breech and tang.......can you show us these please.
Stu

Hi Stu.
Woopps........thought they were included, but I see theyre not. See below........
Rick

kahnjar1 · 18th July 2015, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.
Woopps........thought they were included, but I see theyre not. See below........
Rick

They look like small footprints!!!

Not familiar with them at all.
Stu

rickystl · 19th July 2015, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

They look like small footprints!!!

Not familiar with them at all.
Stu

That's what I thought too.

LOL!!!! Have no idea/

Rick.

Shakethetrees · 19th July 2015, 05:24 AM

[/QUOTE] The 'Poonah' horse is a fascinating unit among the very exciting study of the colorful cavalry regiments of the British Raj. When I first began collecting swords back in the 60s it was all about the British cavalry swords, and soon focused on these native regiments. Most intriguing are the hybrid weapons such as tulwars with British blades etc.

The 'Great Game' indeed was a culmination of world powers in this 'cockpit of Europe' in the 19th century, which had echoed the same kinds of conflicts through the centuries there in these Central Asian regions. As well noted, it continues as we speak, and I have had a son; son in law and grandson, all having served in Afghanistan over the past decade. I could never have imagined that when I began studying these regions almost 50 years ago!

'Shake the Trees'....absolutely outstanding data, well researched and presented...thank you!

Best regards,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Jim, this pistol has been so fascinating I can't put down! In some ways, it's not necessarily what I collect, but the history is so engrossing, with still much to be uncovered, I just keep going. And, it's such a pretty, well thought out design to boot, and evocative of a lost romantic era!

I will create a new thread when I get more.

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2015, 05:49 AM

Shake the Trees, beware, this field is addicting!!!

As I noted, I was soon so heavily into all the native regiments, and I recall one sabre I wanted badly, but the guy would not let go.
It was a Bombay cavalry sabre, beautifully etched etc.
What was incredible was where he got it. I was in Southern Calif then, and apparently one of the big movie studios had been clearing prop warehouses, and there were a bunch of swords from the old 30s movies. This was one of 'em!
They filmed all the old classics out in the desert and valley areas like "Lives of a Bengal Lancer"; "Gunga Din"; and so many others.

One of my favorite memories was visiting a British Brigadier who as a young officer had led one of the last mounted British cavalry charges near the plains in Khyber regions in the 1930s. He authored a book "Last of the Bengal Lancers" (1980s, Brig. Francis Ingall) and had been attached to the 13th Bengal Lancers.

It would be great to see more threads on the weaponry of these units.
Great Britain produced many weapons for these cavalry units, and I once had several tulwars made by Mole of Birmingham.

Shakethetrees · 19th July 2015, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Shake the Trees, beware, this field is addicting!

Yes, I have been hunting for any c.1850-ish era insignia and medals named to the Poonah Irregular Horse, but, sadly, have only found WWI era badges.

Swords? I do not know the pattern they used during his period, or if they may have been marked to this particular unit! If so, I'm in trouble...

Anyone know of something in this category that can help me out, please PM!

Even images that show this pistol on uniformed troopers. I would like to do an article for a magazine.

I know of some print images that are owned by the Woolwich Museum and possibly the National Army Museum in London. (They were used in a book entitled "Indian Army" or something like this!) by Mollo, but I don't have permission to use them.

There are even a few paintings held by a Regimental Museums depicting the regiment at Kushab, if my memory is correct.

If I get off my A** and tighten the legal end of this up! I think this could be a great article.

AHorsa · 8th February 2023, 09:30 PM

I also got one of those pistols from the estate of my dad. He bought it together with the sword from my other thread and some other stuff from Afghanistan in 1971.
Is it possible that the lock(-plate) is british? I think I see a lion and sort of a proof stamp.

Best regards
Andreas

David R · 9th February 2023, 11:57 AM

Over the years I have had a few of these guns, in various states and of various patterns. The first two I bought from Colonel Corrie of Steeple Bumpstead, via the old printed Exchange and Mart. One was very much on the lines of a horse pistol with a hand forged lock and what had been a nice Persian style barrel. The other was a gaspipe special with a repurposed shotgun lock. Both percussion, and both still loaded! Apparently they were Kurdish Saturday Night Specials, and were gathered up by the Sha's police after they were dumped after an incident.
The other two were much nicer and reworked from more conventional origins in India. I wish I still had them, but as the old Chinese saying has it, "the wise man knows that in the course of a long life, there will be more than one occasion when he has to abandon everything!"
I still have a couple of Damascus rifle barrels I bought from the old colonel, bought for projects that never materialised. Those were the days!

20th June 2015, 08:24 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Afghan Pistol Hi Guys, Impossible to find a good thread on the Afghan pistols. I know that they are quite common, but I don't think that's fair to ignore them. They are nice guns like the Jezails... I post one recently sold, do you have any of these? Kubur Attached Images

20th June 2015, 08:28 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Another one... Attached Images

22nd June 2015, 10:44 PM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The Persian copy sold by a famous dealer Attached Images

24th June 2015, 08:21 PM	#10
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Not exactly the same type as the one posted earlier, but used on opposite sides in the same battles. This pistol was of a type that was issued to an H.E.I.C. Cavalry unit that, incidentally still exists today in the Indian Army, but with a different name. There are published images of prints showing various H.E.I.C. Cavalry uniforms with similar, if not identical, pistols being worn in a sash. The distinctive lion head butt cap stands out. This particular style pistol was purchased for the unit circa 1849 or thereabout. As the name was modified or changed regularly these dates can be narrowed down pretty closely. It is of dueling pistol quality with a Damascus barrel, serial numbered 26. All mounts are white brass. During a phase of what was known as the "Great Game", a power struggle in South Asia between Britain, Russia, and Persia that still has repercussions today, the British sent a number of units to Persia and engaged them in several battles. During the battle of Kooshab happened one of the great cavalry charges of the 19th century, the Poonah Irregular Horse, along with several other regiments cut the Persian army to ribbons, virtually ruining the First Kusgai Regiment of Fars. This is the very short version. A book came out that's still available on Amazon called, "John Company's Last War" that will fill in all the details, as well as various useful Wikipedia articles. Attached Images

24th June 2015, 08:32 PM	#11
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Several more bits. The gun is marked on the top barrel flat to Garden and Son, 200 Piccadilly, London. This company was a fancy leather goods and saddle maker and did not make any weapons. It was actually made in Birmingham, England by Harrington and Scott. The serial numbers (or assembly numbers) are struck inside the barrel channel on the stock and on the underside of the barrel. I have a more extensive article in the works on this pistol, and whenever I can get the time (and motivation!) to finish it up and send it round to a publisher, I will post notice of it here if there's interest. One thing I need is to go to Woolwich Arsenal in London to search out a few images of the period uniforms showing this gun being worn. I know they're there, but I need to get rights to use them! Attached Images

21st June 2015, 04:07 AM	#3
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	There may have been afghan muzzle roader pistols at some point or might have been captured or trade British pistols, since there are drawings that show them. Even back in 2002 when everything else was somewhat cheaper, original pistols were hard to find and super expesive. This was a really nice replica, much nicer that most I have seen.

21st June 2015, 06:33 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	This is indeed a very attractive example of the commercial products of the Khyber regions, and the MOP inlay is much like what is applied to the 'camel guns' (jezails) . This, like most of the other pistols usually seen, is a copy of the British cavalry pistols of the mid 19th c which were most often percussion (many to India were indeed flintlock as seen in native regts) As can be seen here, the lock is a flintlock which typically is argued as preferred as they could be kept serviceable more easily than percussion, and caps were hard to come by. The 'rampant lion' mark here became the mark of the East India Co. around 1816-20s. The irregular date stamp is correctly positioned for the early model pistols which used the familiar quadranted heart shape of the EIC, however is of course incongruent. The date is clearly post EIC, as after the 1857 rebellion, the company was nationalized, and by 1874 defunct. While these features of course add to the attractive appearance alluding to authenticity, they are clear indicators of the fact this is indeed a 'Khyber copy', and the skills of these artisans.

28th June 2015, 05:23 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Super interesting gun and history. Thanks for Posting. Rick.

18th July 2015, 06:43 PM	#14
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	"BUMP" This being a fairly recent Thread, I thought I would bump this forward and add a new addition I just received this week. And this one is in percussion, with all the hallmarks of a Kyber made gun. All iron mounted. Missing it's nose cap, a couple of the white bone inlys, some stock damage, etc. The lock is complete and in working order, but the mainspring is a little weak. What looks like a stud for what once may have been a swivel ramrod, actually has a small piece of broken chain in it. And the hole looks too small for a pin for a swivel rod. Not sure. There are multiple marks of the same stamp on the breech and tang. Have no idea what it means. This gun looks like it's seen a lot of action. I do plan on having it restored, but keeping within the overall integrity of the piece. I'll post BEFORE and AFTER pictures at a later date. This piece does fill a void in my collection. These Afghan pistols, even in Kyber type construction, seem hard to come by. So I'm happy to get it. Here are a few pics. Rick. Attached Images

18th July 2015, 08:28 PM	#15
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Rick, Interesting piece and look forward to seeing it restored. You make mention of marks on the breech and tang.......can you show us these please. Stu

19th July 2015, 05:24 AM	#19
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	[/QUOTE] The 'Poonah' horse is a fascinating unit among the very exciting study of the colorful cavalry regiments of the British Raj. When I first began collecting swords back in the 60s it was all about the British cavalry swords, and soon focused on these native regiments. Most intriguing are the hybrid weapons such as tulwars with British blades etc. The 'Great Game' indeed was a culmination of world powers in this 'cockpit of Europe' in the 19th century, which had echoed the same kinds of conflicts through the centuries there in these Central Asian regions. As well noted, it continues as we speak, and I have had a son; son in law and grandson, all having served in Afghanistan over the past decade. I could never have imagined that when I began studying these regions almost 50 years ago! 'Shake the Trees'....absolutely outstanding data, well researched and presented...thank you! Best regards, Jim[/QUOTE] Thanks, Jim, this pistol has been so fascinating I can't put down! In some ways, it's not necessarily what I collect, but the history is so engrossing, with still much to be uncovered, I just keep going. And, it's such a pretty, well thought out design to boot, and evocative of a lost romantic era! I will create a new thread when I get more.

19th July 2015, 05:49 AM	#20
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	Shake the Trees, beware, this field is addicting!!! As I noted, I was soon so heavily into all the native regiments, and I recall one sabre I wanted badly, but the guy would not let go. It was a Bombay cavalry sabre, beautifully etched etc. What was incredible was where he got it. I was in Southern Calif then, and apparently one of the big movie studios had been clearing prop warehouses, and there were a bunch of swords from the old 30s movies. This was one of 'em! They filmed all the old classics out in the desert and valley areas like "Lives of a Bengal Lancer"; "Gunga Din"; and so many others. One of my favorite memories was visiting a British Brigadier who as a young officer had led one of the last mounted British cavalry charges near the plains in Khyber regions in the 1930s. He authored a book "Last of the Bengal Lancers" (1980s, Brig. Francis Ingall) and had been attached to the 13th Bengal Lancers. It would be great to see more threads on the weaponry of these units. Great Britain produced many weapons for these cavalry units, and I once had several tulwars made by Mole of Birmingham.

8th February 2023, 09:30 PM	#22
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	I also got one of those pistols from the estate of my dad. He bought it together with the sword from my other thread and some other stuff from Afghanistan in 1971. Is it possible that the lock(-plate) is british? I think I see a lion and sort of a proof stamp. Best regards Andreas Attached Images

9th February 2023, 11:57 AM	#23
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Over the years I have had a few of these guns, in various states and of various patterns. The first two I bought from Colonel Corrie of Steeple Bumpstead, via the old printed Exchange and Mart. One was very much on the lines of a horse pistol with a hand forged lock and what had been a nice Persian style barrel. The other was a gaspipe special with a repurposed shotgun lock. Both percussion, and both still loaded! Apparently they were Kurdish Saturday Night Specials, and were gathered up by the Sha's police after they were dumped after an incident. The other two were much nicer and reworked from more conventional origins in India. I wish I still had them, but as the old Chinese saying has it, "the wise man knows that in the course of a long life, there will be more than one occasion when he has to abandon everything!" I still have a couple of Damascus rifle barrels I bought from the old colonel, bought for projects that never materialised. Those were the days!