Zanzibar dagger?

Emanuel · 6th November 2006, 06:53 PM

Hello,
Just got this off eBay. It was advertised as Berber, but the handle looks like those on Zanzibar swords. The blade looks to be cut down, as the fullers run all the way to the edge.
It was also advertised as 19th century...would that be a descent dating, or could this piece be much newer?
Emanuel

Lew · 6th November 2006, 07:37 PM

Manolo

It is from Zanzibar but the blade looked cut down to me it seems the fullers run all the way through to the tip.

Lew

Emanuel · 7th November 2006, 02:25 AM

Hi Lew,

Any indications that these might have been European blades?
Emanuel

Justin · 8th November 2006, 01:43 PM

I saw that one too,I aree with Lou looks like it was cut down.I have one that might have a European blade, almost looks like a sabre blade that has been reworked.

I wouldnt be surprised though if there were many with Euro blades,I have seen them in kaskaras , takoubas , koummyas , saifs,and many khodmis seem to be made from files {from Europe?} so it stands to reason that 'Zanzibar swords' had them too.

Ill work on getting some pics of my sword,congrats on the dagger I was tempted to take a shot at it myself

Emanuel · 8th November 2006, 03:32 PM

Hi Justin,

Interesting how similar the hilt is to the Ethiopian gurade...a bit more stylized. Looking forward to your pics.
Emanuel

ariel · 9th November 2006, 01:52 PM

Isn't it a Moroccan Jiboula?
There was also a suggestion that similar swords were used by Ethiopian Falasha.

Emanuel · 9th November 2006, 07:33 PM

Would that be interchangeable for S'Boula, and Shula? Or is there another Morrocan knife you're referring to?

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2006, 01:37 AM

Hi Ariel,
In research several years ago I discovered that these distinctively hilted weapons (believed to derive from the European baselard) actually are Moroccan s'boula, and have typically been termed 'Zanzibar' swords from the reference in Burton's 'Book of the Sword". Apparantly his reference was in turn taken from an error in the earlier work of Demmin, and the error is noted in the work of Charles Buttin. Much of this was the subject of my paper several years ago, but of course there remain differing views. In my paper I explained that there may have easily been diffusion of these weapons across trans Saharan trade routes, via Ethiopia (the Falasha connection

and ultimately to Zanzibar via slave trade routes that entered regions enroute.

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 10th November 2006, 03:14 AM

Hello Jim,

You did mention the s'boula in a thread a long time ago (can't find it now...) but is it a variation of the shula: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=shula, the al-genoui, or a separate form? The wire decorations on the example I posted is remarkably similar to those on my shula, and I believe the hilt is also cow? horn. Come to think of it, the example posted by Lew has a blade that looks like half-a-flyssa...sort of.

Warm regards,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2006, 05:20 AM

Hi Emanuel,
I'll have to look further in notes to check on the terminology, but it seems that often transliteration and local semantics result in degrees of variation describing edged weapons. It must be remembered that 'Berber' is an extremely wide attribution, and various tribes are throughout the Maghreb.
I think it is interesting that these often carry the needle point that is so distinctive on the Algerian flyssa, which belongs of course to the Kabyles group, who are Berber. This seems a characteristic that may also support the Moroccan/ Maghreb attribution of these interesting short swords.

Also important is the fact that Jewish artisans who had emigrated from various regions in Spain to Morocco were very active in weapons production in certain degree, apparantly primarily daggers. They are known to have travelled with caravans and it seems likely they might have made contact with Falashas in Ethiopia, who made weapons for the royal figures there. I think this might explain one of these appearing among Ethiopian weapons in a monograph on them from I think about 30 years ago.

It does seem very interesting that variation of the baselard form of hilt with basic I or H shape is essentially the shape of the Abyssinian shotel hilt, as well as varied edged weapons of the Congo. Diffusion of weapons along vast networks of trade account for influences that appear in varying degree in weapons that are produced locally in regions on or near these routes.

Most of the excitement in the study of ethnographic weapons is found in researching such diffusion and variation, and becomes a bit of an obsession

!!! I remain a confirmed addict .

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 13th November 2006, 07:11 PM

Many thanks for the clarification Jim,

I now have a much better understranding of these terms and weapon types. It trully is fascinating to see how they disceminated throughout an entire continent.
I was unaware that Jewish craftsmen were also producing weapons, thanks for the info. It stands to reason then that they may have brought some knowledge and technology from Spain as well. But then again, the North-African coast has a long history of interaction with the Continent.
So now I can add "s'boula" to my vocabulary

Warm Regards,
Emanuel

6th November 2006, 06:53 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Zanzibar dagger? Hello, Just got this off eBay. It was advertised as Berber, but the handle looks like those on Zanzibar swords. The blade looks to be cut down, as the fullers run all the way to the edge. It was also advertised as 19th century...would that be a descent dating, or could this piece be much newer? Emanuel Attached Images

6th November 2006, 07:37 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Manolo It is from Zanzibar but the blade looked cut down to me it seems the fullers run all the way through to the tip. Lew Attached Images

9th November 2006, 07:33 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Jiboula?? Would that be interchangeable for S'Boula, and Shula? Or is there another Morrocan knife you're referring to?

7th November 2006, 02:25 AM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Lew, Any indications that these might have been European blades? Emanuel

8th November 2006, 01:43 PM	#4
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	I saw that one too,I aree with Lou looks like it was cut down.I have one that might have a European blade, almost looks like a sabre blade that has been reworked. I wouldnt be surprised though if there were many with Euro blades,I have seen them in kaskaras , takoubas , koummyas , saifs,and many khodmis seem to be made from files {from Europe?} so it stands to reason that 'Zanzibar swords' had them too. Ill work on getting some pics of my sword,congrats on the dagger I was tempted to take a shot at it myself

8th November 2006, 03:32 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Justin, Interesting how similar the hilt is to the Ethiopian gurade...a bit more stylized. Looking forward to your pics. Emanuel

9th November 2006, 01:52 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Isn't it a Moroccan Jiboula? There was also a suggestion that similar swords were used by Ethiopian Falasha.

10th November 2006, 01:37 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hi Ariel, In research several years ago I discovered that these distinctively hilted weapons (believed to derive from the European baselard) actually are Moroccan s'boula, and have typically been termed 'Zanzibar' swords from the reference in Burton's 'Book of the Sword". Apparantly his reference was in turn taken from an error in the earlier work of Demmin, and the error is noted in the work of Charles Buttin. Much of this was the subject of my paper several years ago, but of course there remain differing views. In my paper I explained that there may have easily been diffusion of these weapons across trans Saharan trade routes, via Ethiopia (the Falasha connection and ultimately to Zanzibar via slave trade routes that entered regions enroute. All the best, Jim

10th November 2006, 03:14 AM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Jim, You did mention the s'boula in a thread a long time ago (can't find it now...) but is it a variation of the shula: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=shula, the al-genoui, or a separate form? The wire decorations on the example I posted is remarkably similar to those on my shula, and I believe the hilt is also cow? horn. Come to think of it, the example posted by Lew has a blade that looks like half-a-flyssa...sort of. Warm regards, Emanuel

10th November 2006, 05:20 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hi Emanuel, I'll have to look further in notes to check on the terminology, but it seems that often transliteration and local semantics result in degrees of variation describing edged weapons. It must be remembered that 'Berber' is an extremely wide attribution, and various tribes are throughout the Maghreb. I think it is interesting that these often carry the needle point that is so distinctive on the Algerian flyssa, which belongs of course to the Kabyles group, who are Berber. This seems a characteristic that may also support the Moroccan/ Maghreb attribution of these interesting short swords. Also important is the fact that Jewish artisans who had emigrated from various regions in Spain to Morocco were very active in weapons production in certain degree, apparantly primarily daggers. They are known to have travelled with caravans and it seems likely they might have made contact with Falashas in Ethiopia, who made weapons for the royal figures there. I think this might explain one of these appearing among Ethiopian weapons in a monograph on them from I think about 30 years ago. It does seem very interesting that variation of the baselard form of hilt with basic I or H shape is essentially the shape of the Abyssinian shotel hilt, as well as varied edged weapons of the Congo. Diffusion of weapons along vast networks of trade account for influences that appear in varying degree in weapons that are produced locally in regions on or near these routes. Most of the excitement in the study of ethnographic weapons is found in researching such diffusion and variation, and becomes a bit of an obsession !!! I remain a confirmed addict . All the best, Jim

13th November 2006, 07:11 PM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Many thanks for the clarification Jim, I now have a much better understranding of these terms and weapon types. It trully is fascinating to see how they disceminated throughout an entire continent. I was unaware that Jewish craftsmen were also producing weapons, thanks for the info. It stands to reason then that they may have brought some knowledge and technology from Spain as well. But then again, the North-African coast has a long history of interaction with the Continent. So now I can add "s'boula" to my vocabulary Warm Regards, Emanuel