British hilted sword with Indian(?) blade

RSWORD · 24th January 2005, 02:22 AM

I always find it interesting when you have a hilt from one culture and a blade from another. One can find Indian blades mounted in British hilts. One also finds many British blades mounted in Indian hilts. Here is an interesting example that has some unique features worth discussing. The shamshir blade has a most interesting feature near the hilt. The blade has been sandwiched with two steel plates. The plates look to have been koftgari'ed at one time but most of it is worn off. The plates do not serve any functional purpose so I wonder what the intent was. I have only found this feature pictured on one other sword. It is pictured in Stone's and referred to as Salapa.(p. 537 figure 688). That example even has similar scalloping as my example. Why do this? If one wanted to simply add koftgari then why not to the blade? If one wanted to add support to this section of the blade why not forge it thicker? The hilt appears to be British and I would venture a late 18th, early 19th century guess. A real neat combination and makes my imagination run as to how they came together.

Sang Keris · 24th January 2005, 03:00 AM

is that ivory hilt?

tom hyle · 24th January 2005, 05:22 AM

These plates are essentially identical to those that descend from the bolster on many yatagans.

Jens Nordlunde · 24th January 2005, 11:42 AM

It is an interesting combination, but don’t you think the two plates are there, more for looks than for any practical use?
The Salapa Stone shows seem to have a yatagan blade, as far as I can see, but the name seems to refer more to the hilt than to the blade.
Thank you for showing - nice blade

Jens

tom hyle · 24th January 2005, 02:11 PM

Is that blank area on the bolsters (? gotta call 'em something) where a (tulwar?) lagnet once was?
I think the feature may be more a familial mark of cultural relation to yatagan than a directly utilitous feature, although it does stiffen the blade, of course, and should help with shock absorbtion, and one might speculate that the breakable solder joint provides something that can "give" while sparing the actual sword; again, a-la "crumple zones" on cars. Mainly I think its purpose is to express a relation to/visually "cash in on"yatagan, khanda, pata, firengi, etc. with their overlays at blade base and spine. As for why not forge them right in originally, I guess there's two answers to that; A/ I often seen pieces where the cutler/hilter seems to have been having an argument with the bladesmith, as it were, re-arranging his intent on tang angle, etc.; and B/ "That's the way we do." having descended from a seperate feature (yatagan bolster or khanda reinforcers) it remains a seperate feature. What is interesting is to see it persist when any continuation into a bolster or guard seems to have been eliminated.

Andrew · 24th January 2005, 03:02 PM

Rick, is the blade light and thin?

Nick Wardigo · 24th January 2005, 03:10 PM

Is it possible that the bolster is there to tighten the fit of the blade in the scabbard and prevent rattling? This is the function of the Japanese habaki and Chinese tunkou. Ordinarily on a tulwar, the langets serve this same function by hugging either side of the scabbard. Since this weapon does not have langets, perhaps the bolster is there as a substitute.

RSWORD · 25th January 2005, 03:56 AM

Thank you gentleman for your feedback. In regards to questions/comments:

Yes, the grip material is ivory, most probably elephant ivory.

In regards to the plates it is very hard to speculate what the purpose was. As mentioned, Stones is the only example that is similar. Jens is right in that the term Salapa refers to the hilt style and I didn't mean to imply anything with that term just using it as a reference point.

The plates, on each side, do have indentations indicating that the blade might have originally been Tulwar hilted and the langets left deep impressions. The might be suggestive that the blade is somewhat older than the hilt because I am sure it would have taken a bit of time to wear such a groove. Nick makes a good point in regards to its similarity to a habaki or tunkou but I don't think so in this case. I think it was at one time a tulwar hilted blade and the langets would have held it tight in the scabbard. In its current mounting, it is not particularly tight in the scabbard, granted the original scabbard was in very poor condition and what you see here is a restored scabbard utilizing the original mounts.

Andrew the blade is what I would consider medium weight and thickness. Interestingly, it has a fair number of edge nicks from combat much more than any other shamshir in my collection. It was an user!

tom hyle · 25th January 2005, 03:07 PM

Possibly the nicks were acquired in the current hilt; parrying with the sword is more prevalent in Europe.

Andrew · 25th January 2005, 05:03 PM

So, is the concensus that those bolsters are original to the blade, or a later addition?

24th January 2005, 02:22 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	British hilted sword with Indian(?) blade I always find it interesting when you have a hilt from one culture and a blade from another. One can find Indian blades mounted in British hilts. One also finds many British blades mounted in Indian hilts. Here is an interesting example that has some unique features worth discussing. The shamshir blade has a most interesting feature near the hilt. The blade has been sandwiched with two steel plates. The plates look to have been koftgari'ed at one time but most of it is worn off. The plates do not serve any functional purpose so I wonder what the intent was. I have only found this feature pictured on one other sword. It is pictured in Stone's and referred to as Salapa.(p. 537 figure 688). That example even has similar scalloping as my example. Why do this? If one wanted to simply add koftgari then why not to the blade? If one wanted to add support to this section of the blade why not forge it thicker? The hilt appears to be British and I would venture a late 18th, early 19th century guess. A real neat combination and makes my imagination run as to how they came together. Attached Images

24th January 2005, 03:00 AM	#2
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	is that ivory hilt?

24th January 2005, 05:22 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	These plates are essentially identical to those that descend from the bolster on many yatagans.

24th January 2005, 11:42 AM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It is an interesting combination, but don’t you think the two plates are there, more for looks than for any practical use? The Salapa Stone shows seem to have a yatagan blade, as far as I can see, but the name seems to refer more to the hilt than to the blade. Thank you for showing - nice blade Jens

24th January 2005, 02:11 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is that blank area on the bolsters (? gotta call 'em something) where a (tulwar?) lagnet once was? I think the feature may be more a familial mark of cultural relation to yatagan than a directly utilitous feature, although it does stiffen the blade, of course, and should help with shock absorbtion, and one might speculate that the breakable solder joint provides something that can "give" while sparing the actual sword; again, a-la "crumple zones" on cars. Mainly I think its purpose is to express a relation to/visually "cash in on"yatagan, khanda, pata, firengi, etc. with their overlays at blade base and spine. As for why not forge them right in originally, I guess there's two answers to that; A/ I often seen pieces where the cutler/hilter seems to have been having an argument with the bladesmith, as it were, re-arranging his intent on tang angle, etc.; and B/ "That's the way we do." having descended from a seperate feature (yatagan bolster or khanda reinforcers) it remains a seperate feature. What is interesting is to see it persist when any continuation into a bolster or guard seems to have been eliminated.

24th January 2005, 03:02 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Rick, is the blade light and thin?

24th January 2005, 03:10 PM	#7
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Is it possible that the bolster is there to tighten the fit of the blade in the scabbard and prevent rattling? This is the function of the Japanese habaki and Chinese tunkou. Ordinarily on a tulwar, the langets serve this same function by hugging either side of the scabbard. Since this weapon does not have langets, perhaps the bolster is there as a substitute.

25th January 2005, 03:56 AM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Thank you gentleman for your feedback. In regards to questions/comments: Yes, the grip material is ivory, most probably elephant ivory. In regards to the plates it is very hard to speculate what the purpose was. As mentioned, Stones is the only example that is similar. Jens is right in that the term Salapa refers to the hilt style and I didn't mean to imply anything with that term just using it as a reference point. The plates, on each side, do have indentations indicating that the blade might have originally been Tulwar hilted and the langets left deep impressions. The might be suggestive that the blade is somewhat older than the hilt because I am sure it would have taken a bit of time to wear such a groove. Nick makes a good point in regards to its similarity to a habaki or tunkou but I don't think so in this case. I think it was at one time a tulwar hilted blade and the langets would have held it tight in the scabbard. In its current mounting, it is not particularly tight in the scabbard, granted the original scabbard was in very poor condition and what you see here is a restored scabbard utilizing the original mounts. Andrew the blade is what I would consider medium weight and thickness. Interestingly, it has a fair number of edge nicks from combat much more than any other shamshir in my collection. It was an user!

25th January 2005, 03:07 PM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Possibly the nicks were acquired in the current hilt; parrying with the sword is more prevalent in Europe.

25th January 2005, 05:03 PM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	So, is the concensus that those bolsters are original to the blade, or a later addition?