Need info from AMES catalog

celtan · 24th November 2010, 08:03 PM

Need info from AMES catalog
Hi Guys,

I need info, and ideally a scanned image, of a couple items in AMES catalog(s:

I need from the 1882 catalog, both info and image of item/Model 339 "Roman sword".

Also, !'m looking for item/Model 352 "Roman sword for the Independent Order of Odd fellows". I don't know if it is in the 1882 or a different catalog.

Sorry for the inconvenience, but seems I have misplaced my copies.

BR & Happy Thanks Giving!

Manuel

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2010, 03:21 AM

Hi Manolo,
I dont have the 1882 catalog, but I looked in "The American Fraternal Sword" (Hamilton, Marino and Kaplan). The IOOF section shows a number of color illustrated swords, with the 'Roman pattern' variations (KM174-179; KM182-184) with the last grouping seeming more like the M1833 Foot Artillery swords. These have the neo classic hilt with scaled grips solid brass cast.
In the appendix it lists references to the IOOF swords in the 1882 catalog as 300-324 and 327-330).

If you could tell me more on what you're hoping to find or show a photo I could maybe compare it to the images in this book. If its a more specific question I might still be able to reach Joe Marino, but I havent talked with him for about two years.

All the best,
Jim

***NNR*****

celtan · 14th December 2010, 04:25 AM

Hi Jim,

Here's a link, with an album full of pictures of the Gladius sword I have been researching.

http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r...e%20Militaire/

I have seen several _similar_ swords but only one or two identical. Either the crossguard shape, the langets, or the blade itself differ.

Someone suggested it might be a ceremonial sword created on the 100th anniversary of the French Revolution. The sword was reportedly found in a Vichy French military school in the city of Aix, and was reportedly labeled as an "epee de cadet a la Ecole de Mars".

I have found nothing definitive on its origins.

Best regards

Manuel

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2010, 12:32 AM

Hi Manolo,
Thank you for the illustrations, that sure makes this more conclusive. As I indicated in my previous post, the Independant Order of Odd Fellows (IOOF) regalia swords are shown in the book I listed, and while I dont have the 1882 Ames catalog, the example shown in the book is a spot on match with yours.

It is shown in the reference as KM174 (p.76) and is the prescribed sword for a member of the IOOF Degree team, and as noted, of 'Roman Pattern'.

When I first saw the pictures you posted I recalled having seen this unusual kind of sword in Blair ("European and American Arms" , 1962). Checking that book I found that a similar type sword (p.103, 'J') was issued to cadets at the Ecole de Mars, a Revolutionary military academy which existed for only one year in France (1794-95). Apparantly the sword was designed by French artist JacquesLouis David (1748-1825).

In looking online to learn more on the Ecole de Mars, I discovered the similar type sword, but not a match to either this clear IOOF pattern, nor the original example from France in 1794, on an identification site copyrighted by a C. Allan Russell, which also reflected the data I have shown above. He also mentions the IOOF possibility, but was unclear on its veracity. Russell notes also the "Swords and Hilt Weapons" (Coe) reference showing one of these type swords.

The Freemasons and other Fraternal Brotherhoods of course incorporate a great deal of neoclassic symbolism in thier regalia, so these swords and much of the motif of course lean toward these Roman patterns often seen in the times of the French Revolution. On the original Ecole de Mars sword there is a device showing the 'Phrygian hat' which was used considerably during the Revolution. This design is also used stylistically on the French military sabres and subsequently US military sabres (the pommel is termed the Phrygian hat).

The original Ecole de Mars sword has also strange downward quillons and a rudimentary upturned open knuckleguard. The pommels on these other examples were smooth rather than fluted, and the grips scaled rather than spirally gadrooned.

Thanks for the opportunity to identify this Manolo! While seemingly a distinctly established pattern, these must be relatively uncommon. The IOOF was founded in England in 1745, with the first American lodge in Baltimore in 1819. The organization became independant of the original British branch in 1843. It was a benevolent organization and it would seem that further research would reveal the various lodges and membership numbers etc.
The color in the scabbard insert seems to be pertinant also as these it seems relate to status or rank.

All the best,
Jim

Just added attachments:
The IOOF sword we are discussing
Chart of officers IOOF
Wyatt Earp's IOOF membership

Apparantly this organization by the turn of the century exceeded even Freemasonry in membership, with lodges across the country, so it would be a pretty formidable task to trace further.

celtan · 15th December 2010, 07:22 PM

Hi Jim,

Thank you very much for your time and asistance. I had also researched the IOOOF angle, but I had not found a sword identical to this one, similar yes, but not identical. The data would also be at odds with the reported finding of the sword at a French Military School during WWII.

Could I trouble you for a scan of the image found in "The American Fraternal Sword" (Hamilton, Marino and Kaplan) KM174 (p.76)..?

I am like the proverbial St. Thomas, need to see the hard data myself to feel at ease. Not the least, it also means I was taken for a ride...

Once again, thank you kindly my friend.

Merry Xmas!

Manolo

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2010, 08:28 PM

You bet Manolo! Im glad I could help. This book on "The American Fraternal Sword" is really an amazing source for these kinds of 'missing links' and anomalies. For many years these swords were pretty much tossed off as garage sale miscellania and stuff that turned up in among the frilly antiques in shops, largely ignored by serious weapons collectors.

I first saw an article in the original issue of "Man at Arms" magazine back in 1979 by John Hamilton on Masonic swords. It was so interesting and esoteric it always captivated me with all the symbolism (my favorite topic

. I filed it away for future reference and the swords moved back into the shadows (in the larger perspective, so enthusiasts easy!!).
However Joe Marino was undeterred and along with Mr. Hamilton and Jim Kaplan put together an incredibly comprehensive book and collections of these swords.

Just in researching this sword, I came across several examples of these variations of IOOF swords that are being represented as these rare Ecole de Mars swords online. It seems I had one of the IOOF examples once with the brass scaled hilt and remember not having a clue what it was, actually never thought of it until now. Usually all these type of unidentified items seem to have been regarded Confederate in those days....if nobody can identify it, it must be Confederate

I'll get the scan done later....ours which my wife was using heavily, went out valiantly in the surge of Christmas printing...so we are getting a new one as we speak.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2010, 02:44 AM

Here it is Manolo!! Please note, if it is in the Ames 1882 catalog, the #352 must be the wrong designator as that number is outside the groupings listed.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 18th December 2010, 08:12 PM

Hope this has been of some help, and Im pleased to see the volume of views indicating interest in this topic. It would have been increasingly interesting if anyone else out there had encountered similar swords or had other questions.
In any case Im glad to have been given the opportunity to engage in this research, I know I learned from it.

Best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 19th December 2010, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Jim,

Here's a link, with an album full of pictures of the Gladius sword I have been researching.

http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r...e%20Militaire/

I have seen several _similar_ swords but only one or two identical. Either the crossguard shape, the langets, or the blade itself differ.

Someone suggested it might be a ceremonial sword created on the 100th anniversary of the French Revolution. The sword was reportedly found in a Vichy French military school in the city of Aix, and was reportedly labeled as an "epee de cadet a la Ecole de Mars".

I have found nothing definitive on its origins.

Best regards

Manuel

Hi guys,

I know now the French sword you wish more information on. I only know as I have seen two and seen them both fetch more money than I ever had in my pockets ten years ago and they always stuck in my mind as a beautiful item, certainly far removed from the fraternal swords shown in quality but much the same in form.

The fraternal swords offered here are based on a very rare sword of French origins, The regulation Glaive for L'Ecole de Mars circa 1794.

L'Ecole de Mars was established by decree of the National Convention dated Le 13 Prairial An II (1st Junr 1794). The institution soon collapsed under the weight of political turmoil generated by its students and was disolved by decree dated le 2 Brumaire de L'an. III (23 October 1794). Reference: Aries, XXIII, 5, 1975 and thank you Sothebys ;-)

With such a short life span one can understand when collecting regulation French pattern swords, this is a must have and the price is reflected as such...wish I bought the two I saw...

Gav

24th November 2010, 08:03 PM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Need info from AMES catalog Need info from AMES catalog Hi Guys, I need info, and ideally a scanned image, of a couple items in AMES catalog(s: I need from the 1882 catalog, both info and image of item/Model 339 "Roman sword". Also, !'m looking for item/Model 352 "Roman sword for the Independent Order of Odd fellows". I don't know if it is in the 1882 or a different catalog. Sorry for the inconvenience, but seems I have misplaced my copies. BR & Happy Thanks Giving! Manuel

10th December 2010, 03:21 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Manolo, I dont have the 1882 catalog, but I looked in "The American Fraternal Sword" (Hamilton, Marino and Kaplan). The IOOF section shows a number of color illustrated swords, with the 'Roman pattern' variations (KM174-179; KM182-184) with the last grouping seeming more like the M1833 Foot Artillery swords. These have the neo classic hilt with scaled grips solid brass cast. In the appendix it lists references to the IOOF swords in the 1882 catalog as 300-324 and 327-330). If you could tell me more on what you're hoping to find or show a photo I could maybe compare it to the images in this book. If its a more specific question I might still be able to reach Joe Marino, but I havent talked with him for about two years. All the best, Jim *NNR*** Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th December 2010 at 02:15 AM.

15th December 2010, 12:32 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Manolo, Thank you for the illustrations, that sure makes this more conclusive. As I indicated in my previous post, the Independant Order of Odd Fellows (IOOF) regalia swords are shown in the book I listed, and while I dont have the 1882 Ames catalog, the example shown in the book is a spot on match with yours. It is shown in the reference as KM174 (p.76) and is the prescribed sword for a member of the IOOF Degree team, and as noted, of 'Roman Pattern'. When I first saw the pictures you posted I recalled having seen this unusual kind of sword in Blair ("European and American Arms" , 1962). Checking that book I found that a similar type sword (p.103, 'J') was issued to cadets at the Ecole de Mars, a Revolutionary military academy which existed for only one year in France (1794-95). Apparantly the sword was designed by French artist JacquesLouis David (1748-1825). In looking online to learn more on the Ecole de Mars, I discovered the similar type sword, but not a match to either this clear IOOF pattern, nor the original example from France in 1794, on an identification site copyrighted by a C. Allan Russell, which also reflected the data I have shown above. He also mentions the IOOF possibility, but was unclear on its veracity. Russell notes also the "Swords and Hilt Weapons" (Coe) reference showing one of these type swords. The Freemasons and other Fraternal Brotherhoods of course incorporate a great deal of neoclassic symbolism in thier regalia, so these swords and much of the motif of course lean toward these Roman patterns often seen in the times of the French Revolution. On the original Ecole de Mars sword there is a device showing the 'Phrygian hat' which was used considerably during the Revolution. This design is also used stylistically on the French military sabres and subsequently US military sabres (the pommel is termed the Phrygian hat). The original Ecole de Mars sword has also strange downward quillons and a rudimentary upturned open knuckleguard. The pommels on these other examples were smooth rather than fluted, and the grips scaled rather than spirally gadrooned. Thanks for the opportunity to identify this Manolo! While seemingly a distinctly established pattern, these must be relatively uncommon. The IOOF was founded in England in 1745, with the first American lodge in Baltimore in 1819. The organization became independant of the original British branch in 1843. It was a benevolent organization and it would seem that further research would reveal the various lodges and membership numbers etc. The color in the scabbard insert seems to be pertinant also as these it seems relate to status or rank. All the best, Jim Just added attachments: The IOOF sword we are discussing Chart of officers IOOF Wyatt Earp's IOOF membership Apparantly this organization by the turn of the century exceeded even Freemasonry in membership, with lodges across the country, so it would be a pretty formidable task to trace further. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th December 2010 at 02:43 AM.

16th December 2010, 02:44 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Here it is Manolo!! Please note, if it is in the Ames 1882 catalog, the #352 must be the wrong designator as that number is outside the groupings listed. All the best, Jim Attached Images

14th December 2010, 04:25 AM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Jim, Here's a link, with an album full of pictures of the Gladius sword I have been researching. http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r...e%20Militaire/ I have seen several _similar_ swords but only one or two identical. Either the crossguard shape, the langets, or the blade itself differ. Someone suggested it might be a ceremonial sword created on the 100th anniversary of the French Revolution. The sword was reportedly found in a Vichy French military school in the city of Aix, and was reportedly labeled as an "epee de cadet a la Ecole de Mars". I have found nothing definitive on its origins. Best regards Manuel

15th December 2010, 07:22 PM	#5
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Jim, Thank you very much for your time and asistance. I had also researched the IOOOF angle, but I had not found a sword identical to this one, similar yes, but not identical. The data would also be at odds with the reported finding of the sword at a French Military School during WWII. Could I trouble you for a scan of the image found in "The American Fraternal Sword" (Hamilton, Marino and Kaplan) KM174 (p.76)..? I am like the proverbial St. Thomas, need to see the hard data myself to feel at ease. Not the least, it also means I was taken for a ride... Once again, thank you kindly my friend. Merry Xmas! Manolo

15th December 2010, 08:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	You bet Manolo! Im glad I could help. This book on "The American Fraternal Sword" is really an amazing source for these kinds of 'missing links' and anomalies. For many years these swords were pretty much tossed off as garage sale miscellania and stuff that turned up in among the frilly antiques in shops, largely ignored by serious weapons collectors. I first saw an article in the original issue of "Man at Arms" magazine back in 1979 by John Hamilton on Masonic swords. It was so interesting and esoteric it always captivated me with all the symbolism (my favorite topic . I filed it away for future reference and the swords moved back into the shadows (in the larger perspective, so enthusiasts easy!!). However Joe Marino was undeterred and along with Mr. Hamilton and Jim Kaplan put together an incredibly comprehensive book and collections of these swords. Just in researching this sword, I came across several examples of these variations of IOOF swords that are being represented as these rare Ecole de Mars swords online. It seems I had one of the IOOF examples once with the brass scaled hilt and remember not having a clue what it was, actually never thought of it until now. Usually all these type of unidentified items seem to have been regarded Confederate in those days....if nobody can identify it, it must be Confederate I'll get the scan done later....ours which my wife was using heavily, went out valiantly in the surge of Christmas printing...so we are getting a new one as we speak. All the best, Jim

18th December 2010, 08:12 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hope this has been of some help, and Im pleased to see the volume of views indicating interest in this topic. It would have been increasingly interesting if anyone else out there had encountered similar swords or had other questions. In any case Im glad to have been given the opportunity to engage in this research, I know I learned from it. Best regards, Jim