Sword for identification

[Jim McDougall]

I go along with Iain and his astute reference to the 'cuff' etc.
It seems to me that this resembles a Kirghiz (Kyrgyz) type sword that I saw in a panel of line drawings in a book by Michael Gorelik. In research on the swords of Steppes tribes years ago David Nicolle recommended him, I dont have the book handy so cant recall title.

Similar swords to these are in David Nicolle's works, and there are various types of these in similarity. These tribal groups' history is complex but fascinating and it seems were involved in the evolution of the saber.
I am wondering if the curious curving of the blade on this one has to do with the ceremonial 'killing' of the sword being placed in burials. Not sure of the extent of this practice in these Steppes contexts.

While these swords can in many perspectives be seen as 'Oriental' or 'Asian' they do have aspects that play into European history with respect to the assimilation of these tribes into such populations such as noted in Hungary etc.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I go along with Iain and his astute reference to the 'cuff' etc.
It seems to me that this resembles a Kirghiz (Kyrgyz) type sword that I saw in a panel of line drawings in a book by Michael Gorelik. In research on the swords of Steppes tribes years ago David Nicolle recommended him, I dont have the book handy so cant recall title.

Similar swords to these are in David Nicolle's works, and there are various types of these in similarity. These tribal groups' history is complex but fascinating and it seems were involved in the evolution of the saber.
I am wondering if the curious curving of the blade on this one has to do with the ceremonial 'killing' of the sword being placed in burials. Not sure of the extent of this practice in these Steppes contexts.

While these swords can in many perspectives be seen as 'Oriental' or 'Asian' they do have aspects that play into European history with respect to the assimilation of these tribes into such populations such as noted in Hungary etc.

This is not a steppes sword or design as we'd classically define it. Rather it filters out of Persia and finds common use among both Islamic and Byzantine forces perhaps as early as the 8th century but certainly by the 9th (see Bashir's Arts of the Islamic Knight for examples) . This one was likely in Crimea because the byzantines controlled the south of the peninsula into the late middle ages. Nothing particularly tribal here. These swords are all over Byzantine wall paintings and art. I've seen them turn up even in Poland. One was uncovered a few years ago there. Just a few references...

Aleksić M. 2010. Some typological features of Byzantine spatha. Зборник радова Византолошког института XLVII, 121-136

Bakradze, I., 2011 Arms and Armory of Georgian Warriors during the 10th - 11th CC. (According to the Archaeological and Written Sources), Works of the Institute of the History of Georgia. Tbilisi, 4. pp. 71–74, 89

Baranov G. V., 2011 Byzantine (Mediterranean) 9th — 11th century swords with sleeve cross-guards, Materials in Archaeology and History of Ancient and Medieval Crimea, Archaeology, History, Numismatics, Sigillography and Epigraphy volume 9 Moscow Tyumen Nizhnevartovsk, 248-283

Bashir M. 2008. The Arts of the Muslim Knight: The Furusiyya Art Foundation Collection. Milano: Skira

Kamburov, S., 2017 Early Medieval “Arabic” Swords in Bulgarian Lands Today, Civilization Boundaries Volume 25, Number 3, 268-297

Rabovyanov, D. 2011, Early Medieval Sword Guards from Bulgaria, Archeologia Bulgarica XV, 2, 73-86

Yotov, V. 2011 A new Byzantine type of swords (7th — 11th centuries). Nish i Vizantiјa IX, 113-124

It's important not to confuse these swords with steppes sabers and blades with a 'tonkou' something entirely different in construction.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Iain. Well explained and great references. Forgot about Bashir's book.

[ariel]

Evgeny,
You have the sword in your hands and it is difficult to argue with you about the configuration of the blade.
The impression of recurvature at the distal part of the blade may indeed be an optical illusion due to the axial bend there. But I still get an impression that the proximal 2/3 of the blade do show some saber-like curvature.
Can you put a long straight ruler along the spine from the quillon to the beginning of the bend and see whether there is a gap?
Crimea was populated by multiple ethnicities , from the Golden Horde to Europeans. The pommel does not resemble any “ oriental” example and the deep wide fuller is also, IMHO, not typical for “oriental” blades of 14-16 century or earlier. There are , however 2 Golden Horde swords of the 12th century ( excavated at Tekstilschik and Kairka) with distinctly yataghan-like recurved blades.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by ariel

Evgeny,
You have the sword in your hands and it is difficult to argue with you about the configuration of the blade.
The impression of recurvature at the distal part of the blade may indeed be an optical illusion due to the axial bend there. But I still get an impression that the proximal 2/3 of the blade do show some saber-like curvature.
Can you put a long straight ruler along the spine from the quillon to the beginning of the bend and see whether there is a gap?
Crimea was populated by multiple ethnicities , from the Golden Horde to Europeans. The pommel does not resemble any “ oriental” example and the deep wide fuller is also, IMHO, not typical for “oriental” blades of 14-16 century or earlier. There are , however 2 Golden Horde swords of the 12th century ( excavated at Tekstilschik and Kairka) with distinctly yataghan-like recurved blades.

Hi Ariel,
At this moment the sword isn't in my hands, but I asked to do such kind of measurement of the curvature of the blade. The result is on photo. So I was mistaken when I said that the blade is straight - it has a clear curvature.

[ariel]

Thanks!
Sorry for bothering you again, but this pic looks more informative than the earlier ones.
What is the width of the blade by the handle vs. close to the tip? Is there some kind of yelman-like configuration?

I also do not see much similarity with the " steppes" ( nomadic) swords. It looks at least a couple of centuries younger. I would not exclude some Ottoman or even Zaporozhian cossacs Kilij/pala.
You can look for books by Denis Toichkin ( in Ukrainian). I am not feeling well these days ( nothing terrible or dangerous, just some hip muscle tear), stay in bed most of the time and have codein with every meal and any occasional snacks. Cannot think very straight and am useless as a " consultant":-(((
Sorry.

[Evgeny_K]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thanks!
Sorry for bothering you again, but this pic looks more informative than the earlier ones.
What is the width of the blade by the handle vs. close to the tip? Is there some kind of yelman-like configuration?

I also do not see much similarity with the " steppes" ( nomadic) swords. It looks at least a couple of centuries younger. I would not exclude some Ottoman or even Zaporozhian cossacs Kilij/pala.
You can look for books by Denis Toichkin ( in Ukrainian). I am not feeling well these days ( nothing terrible or dangerous, just some hip muscle tear), stay in bed most of the time and have codein with every meal and any occasional snacks. Cannot think very straight and am useless as a " consultant":-(((
Sorry.

Ariel, you do not bother me at all, on the contrary, I am very pleased with your participation in the discussion

The width of the blade is 3,1 cm near the crossguard, 2,8 cm in the middle part and 3,1 cm near the tip. So the blade is almost the same width along the entire length.

Get well soon! Поправляйтесь!

[cornelistromp]

see the examples of Baranov sword type Galovo.

in following link

http://truehistoryshop.com/byzantine-militarist-swords/


The sleeve of the sword of post 1 indeed seems reversed because the whiskers are not pointing towards the point.

Then the question of dating remains.
were there In the 11th century single-edged blades with such a pronounced fuller ?, or has this type Galovo been common for centuries?

best,

[Iain]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

see the examples of Baranov sword type Galovo.

in following link

http://truehistoryshop.com/byzantine-militarist-swords/


The sleeve of the sword of post 1 indeed seems reversed because the whiskers are not pointing towards the point.

Then the question of dating remains.
were there In the 11th century single-edged blades with such a pronounced fuller ?, or has this type Galovo been common for centuries?

best,

That link basically uses all the papers and sources I posted.

Thanks for the clear picture Evgeny of the blade.

These cuff hilts can appear with a curved blade. There's actually a couple hiding in the link you posted although with slightly different designs but the family resemblence is clear. In an image from the collection of a private Bulgarian citizen. I'm attaching the original image here for reference, 4th sword from the right and second from the left.