saudi executioners sword

[fenlander]

First appologies for another morbid question by me. Has anyone got any pics of a real modern saudi executioner's sword (this would be classed as ethnogenic right) ? I don't want pics of executions (seriously). I just want to know what the sword looks like and the steel used for the blade. I guess it would be very high carbon steel that keeps a great edge. I am also interested to know if they are decorated with jewels etc as the Saudi government alledgedly pays thousands of dollars for them. Also are they the same swords used now as used in the past. A picture and details of steel would be very interesting to see. Picture pleaseeee

Thank you

Fenlander

[ariel]

As ordered:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=executioner

[fenlander]

Thanks for the clip. Interesting looking sword. He mentioned the handle broke once. Perhaps it didn't have a full tang.

Anyway thanks for the clip

[Lew]

I have one problem with the sword. After cutting off so many heads the blade would show signs of wear such as nicks or the the blade itself would be worn down from constant resharpening. I remember reading that in Europe the swords used in beheadings were a big hassle to maintain due to the fact that they had to be resharpened after every use.

Lew

[Bill]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I have one problem with the sword. After cutting off so many heads the blade would show signs of wear such as nicks or the the blade itself would be worn down from constant resharpening. I remember reading that in Europe the swords used in beheadings were a big hassle to maintain due to the fact that they had to be resharpened after every use.

Lew

Would a well made blade nick on bone? I don't think the Saudi's have a perfect history of one cut. The proper technique may be more important then a razor sharp blade. Don't forget that there were a number of headhunting groups that didn't use swords but used sharpened shell & split bamboo. There was a PBS show on Romans executed by Romans in England; the remains showed some had several whacks while others showed one clean cut. Bad executions or ordered that way?

[Lew]

[QUOTE=Bill]Would a well made blade nick on bone?


Yes it would.

Lew

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Bill

Would a well made blade nick on bone?

Sometimes, but not always. Skill helps but nature of blade is critical.

Human heads come off easily to a skilled heads man.

At Nanking Japanese officers held competitions to see who could behead the most people without stopping for rest. These were published in Japanese papers.

It was usual to get over 100 beheadings done.

Some of the contempary Japanese reports mention bent or nicked blades, but many katana {both old & new.} came through unscathed.

I have a kukri used for beheading buffalo in a Nepali village every year since 1918 or 1919 at Dashien in Nepal up untill 2 years ago.

No nicks on it.

Thats because The idea is to hit between the vertebrae, not smack in the middle of one! thats whats seperates the experts from the amatuers.

Spiral

[S.Al-Anizi]

Hi,

I actually got hold of some real footage of an execution in a public square in Saudi Arabia. It is in .3gp format, so it must have been taken using a phone camera. Anyway, what you see is this headsman, taking a couple of practice swings on the neck, before delivering the cut, using a slightly curved blade. The head is not severed, but clearly he cut most of the neck, from the back, and the victim, who was sitting on his knees, lumps to the ground, motionless, a few seconds later, a pool of blood is clearly visible by his head.

I was really surprised, I thought they would always sever the head entirely.

[Lew]

The right tool for the job these swords are not. The blades IMO are too narrow and too light to be effective. Not being able to cleanly sever the head is considered a botched job in many cultures causing the condemned more pain and suffering. I think this thread is also not a very pleasant one so this will be my last reply on this subject.


Lew

[Steven C.]

Hm, about the not fully-severing the head, that doesnt suprise me. I remember reading awhile back , that contrary to popular belief during samurai seppuku, the kaishakunin did NOT fully sever the head as a rule. The idea was to make a clean cut through but to stop, leaving a good strip of flesh. This was to make the ritual much more.. civilised I geuss you could say, seeing as how a head flying off across the room spraying blood everywhere is not pleasant. The beheading during seppuku is meant to be an act of mercy for an otherwise agonising death, NOT a display.

I'm fairly sure that for the same practical reasons, the same is done with the Saudi's, as our friend above has said he's seen in a video.

[ariel]

We are veering into morbid seas....
Just my 5 cents:
The quest for instantaneous and complete decapitation is centuries old.
Because even highly trained men could not always do the job right with an ax or a sword, did Mr. Guilloten invent his machine. It was advertised precisely from the humanistic point of view: no pain, instant death etc. Mr. Guilloten was himself beheaded by his invention later on, but his personal impression is yet to be published....

[Bill]

I agree this is a unplesant subject but I think there is value in how some swords did develope for this matter. The subject can be broken into 2 classes; ritualistic & definitive. Executions would be definitive. While some swords may have developed specifically for execution, I tend to think most must have had battlefield use as primary function. Both ritualistic & definitive would seek the same result. Either on the battle field or traveling to hostile territory to secure the trophy, it has to be assumed that development of some swords were to efficiently do this task. The mountain tribes of Luzon either developed the head axe or adapted it. I would agree with Cato that the Moro adapted the panabas (most likely a tool) for definitive reasons. Most other head-removal groups, must have relied on weapons they took to battle. While speculation, I think the Kris developing from the keris is a good example, especially if the primary battle weapon was blowgun or spear.

[fenlander]

[QUOTE=Bill]I agree this is a unplesant subject but I think there is value in how some swords did develope for this matter. QUOTE]

Exactly. People only find it disturbing because it still goes on today.
I was actually interested in the kind of metal used. It is a good way for me to understand metal types used in swords. For example i know that most "samurai" swords would be softer in the middle and harder on the edges therefore creating a hard edged sword that was not too brittle etc etc. Therefore I presume an executioners sword would be very brittle as a good edge would be the most important attribute. Sharpness I presume would be the most important priority as it would not be colliding with something as hard as an enemy shield or parrying sword etc etc. I think learning about how swords are designed and made for certain puroposes can teach the beginer like myself an awful lot about swords. Lets face it what percentage of swords were really designed to do anything nice to another human being ? yeah a few just for ceremonial purposes, but then again we just have ceremonial swords because swords represent power (power through the ability to take life). Yeah sure i don't want to see real executions no thanks (yuk) not my cup of tea but discussing how they (the swords) are made can lead to great learning.
So what steel would be the best then ? High carbon ? or what ? How are they made ? No one really answered that. If you were a sword smith and some rich shiek a few hundred years ago said make an executioners sword. Would that be different to a battle sword ? How would it be different etc etc. I think it is a decent academic question And of great value to the beginer like myself.
Kind of like the physics question to students of physics. The teacher asked them how would they make a nuclear bomb. Nuclear bombs are far worse than executioners swords, but it was a useful way to teach the physics students about physics.
However I guess there is something in our memes that makes us more terrified and repulsed by swords than atomic bombs.

[Montino Bourbon]

Which is a very slanted blade, I would say that a panabas might be the most efficient.

Heavy, well-tempered blade. short cutting edge, abrupt slant; sounds very effective, if not the best in a fighting situation.

In some countries, practicing decapitation on live criminals was the norm for young warriors; the actual experience was believed to be vital (!). Other countries and ethnic groups used animals to get the feel.

Sort of like a round of golf; practice, anyone?

Just don't start enjoying it and lose your head over it. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

[katana]

I suppose the requirements of a 'good' be-heading sword would include a two handed hilt. A 'heavy' blade, carbon steel with a 'v' edge and 'clipped point' The sword's balance would need to be 'top heavy' to aid the downward stroke. Axes were the norm. in Britain's earlier history....and a sword, such as I described above, would have 'axe-like' qualities. The advantage over the axe is the fact that with an axe,the weight is 'concentrated' at one end and it would be easy not to strike cleanly

[Joe]

Pictures of a few beheading swords from around the world:

Sorry if this seems a little out of order, I'm exhausted, but I'll try and clean it up when I get the chance.

[fernando]

An impressive German specimen of the 16th century.
blade length 925 m/m= 36 1/2"
blade width 90 m/m= 3 1/2"