Chinese Ge

Klas Larsson · 26th May 2007, 11:46 PM

Hi, I just found this Chinese Ge (Dagger axe) and took a chance with it, I dont know bronze weapons at all. I would be grateful for any information on it. As if it's a fake or not... but I guess it's hard to say form just pictures.

VANDOO · 27th May 2007, 02:51 AM

MY RULE OF THUMB ON THESE IS IF IT WAS BOUGHT RECENTLY FROM A DEALER IN CHINA ITS A REPO AS ANYTHING OVER 100 YEARS OLD IS FORBIDDEN EXPORT. THE ODDS ARE LONG ON GETTING A REAL ANTIQUE CHINESE BRONZE BUT I SUPPOSE IT COULD HAPPEN, BUT IF THE SELLER KNEW IT WAS THE REAL THING IT WOULD BE EXPENSIVE. I DON'T MIND BUYING A GOOD BRONZE REPLICA FOR A FAIR PRICE BUT UNFORTUNATELY MANY ARE PUT UP FOR SALE AS THE REAL THING WITH TOO BIG OF A PRICE ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ADD IN THE RIDICULOUS S&H CHARGES FROM CHINA. SEARCH THE OLD FORUMS FOR BRONZE AND YOU WILL FIND SOME OLD POSTS. ANY BRONZE ITEM WITH A OPENING BID OF .99 CENTS AND A S&H FROM CHINA OF $80.00 TO 150.00 ON EBAY IS A RIP OFF FOR SURE.

Klas Larsson · 27th May 2007, 01:17 PM

Hi Vandoo, Thanks for your advice. This was bought from the USA, and there where other items sold that where Chinese and definitely genuine, from Qing era. But the seller didn't really know what he had, and neither do I, in this case...

Mark · 27th May 2007, 10:27 PM

There are a number of examples in the History of Steel catalogue (and the on-line version), and they are discussed in the accompanying article as well.

I agree with VANDOO that the odds are not great that it is genuine, unless you can trace its provenance back at least a couple decades. I'm not sure when the repro industry really started taking off, but I'm guessing that during the Maoist era, and particularly during the Cultural Revolution (which ended in the '70s), they would not have been made at all, so it would have started later. Thus, anything that can't be traced back before the '80s is more likely a repro than not.

VANDOO · 28th May 2007, 04:44 AM

BEFORE THE RISE OF COMMUNISM IN CHINA THERE WAS A CLASS OF PEOPLE WHO HAD ENOUGH EDUCATION AND MONEY TO COLLECT ANTIQUES. SOME VERY GOOD QUALITY BRONZE WORK WAS DONE DURING THIS TIME AS THERE WAS A MARKET. THE REPLICAS HAD TO BE VERY GOOD TO FOOL OR INTREST A COLLECTOR , IT WAS DIFFICULT TO TELL THE FAKE FROM THE REAL EXCEPT THEY MADE TOO MANY OF THE MORE POPULAR ITEMS WHICH GAVE IT AWAY. WHEN COMMUNISM TOOK OVER THESE COLLECTORS WERE EITHER DEAD, FLED TO OTHER COUNTRYS OR LOST EVERYTHING THEY HAD AND WERE SENT OFF TO BE RE-EDUCATED TO BE POLITICALLY CORRECT. CHINA MORE OR LESS ISOLATED ITSELF AND THESE ITEMS JUST SET IN SHOPS THRUOUT THE COUNTRY WITH NO ONE TO BUY. WHEN cHINA STARTED TO MAKE A MOVE TO MODERNIZE AND COMPETE FOR WORLD POWER TRADE STARTED AND A LOT OF THESE ITEMS HIT THE MARKET THOUGH THEY ARE NOT ORIGINALS THE REPLICAS COULD BE OVER 100 YEARS OLD.

I HAVE NOTED THAT THE BRONZE INDUSTRY HAS STARTED UP AGAIN BUT OFTEN THE QUALITY OF WORKMANSHIP IS NOT AS GOOD AS THE OLDER ITEMS AND THERE ARE EVEN FANTASY BRONZE AGE SWORDS. SO THERE IS A MIX OF ITEMS OF VARYING AGE AND WORKMANSHIP ON THE MARKET AT PRESENT.

Bill M · 28th May 2007, 10:55 PM

Han Dynasty Ge. Provenance Anthony Allen.

In his marvelous book, "Allen's Authentication of Ancient Chinese Bronzes"
he suggests that you buy some Chinese coins (cheap) and can have a good look at what the patina should be like.

http://www.selectbooks.com.sg/getTitle.cfm?SBNum=32688
(you can find it cheaper, about $80)

Klas Larsson · 29th May 2007, 01:49 AM

That was a lot of good advice. Both books looks very interesting, and as there is not much literature on Chinese weapons, I must get those. Thank you both for those books.

It was interesting to hear that there are 100 years old bronze replicas! Collecting has a very long tradition in China, I have heard, so that makes sense. I realize it's impossible to say something definite on just pictures but I was interested in all opinions, and qualified guesses.

I my inexperienced eye the Ge look as it have some heavy patina, and also the damage gave me a feeling that it might be worth a chance. But I really dont know what to look for. And it lacks any provenance. So fairly low chance I guess.

VANDOO · 29th May 2007, 04:43 AM

SEARCH IN THE OLD FORUM FOR "REPLICAS CURRENTLY IN VOUGE" POSTED 8/07/2001 BY VANDOO.
UNFORTUNATELY MOST PICTURES ARE GONE BUT THERE IS A GOOD PICTURE OF A SHOP SHOWING WHAT WAS TO BE SEEN REPEATED MANY TIMES IN MANY CITIES IN CHINA. PHILIP TOM ALSO CONFIRMS THE PRESENCE OF CHINESE COLLECTORS GOING BACK A LONG WAY. A BRONZE FAKE HAD TO BE VERY WELL MADE AND PATINATED IN ORDER TO SELL TO MANY COLLECTORS AS MANY WERE VERY WELL EDUCATED IN ANTIQUE BRONZE ITEMS. THERE ARE MANY OTHER POSTS ON BRONZE ITEMS IN THE OLD FORUMS ALSO. BELOW ARE SOME PICTURES OF ONES I HAVE MOST I CONSIDER REPLICAS EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE THE OFFICIAL CHINESE STAMP AND SEAL. THE LAST PICTURE HAS SOME REAL ONES BUT THEY ARE NOT BRONZE EXCEPT FOR THE TWO AX HEADS. SOME OF THE OTHER KNIVES ARE COMMON TOURIST ITEMS SHOWY WITH FAIR WORKMANSHIP AND MOST IMPORTANT CHEAP.

Bill M · 31st May 2007, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klas Larsson

It was interesting to hear that there are 100 years old bronze replicas! Collecting has a very long tradition in China, I have heard, so that makes sense. I realize it's impossible to say something definite on just pictures but I was interested in all opinions, and qualified guesses.

Klas,

The Chinese have been making fakes MUCH longer than 100 years. It is a tradition and often considered just "good business to have extravagant age and provenance claims."

It is only logical to realize that most weapons, axes, whatever that were real and authentic were of low quality, made for use by average people. The Ge I posted was not made for a Chinese General, nobility or high ranking official! The price was surprisingly low for an authentic Han piece. Email me for amount if you like.

It seems naive to me that many people buy "Chinese General" weapons, particularly on eBay.

You may get lucky in an antique shop or flea market, but the more you do your homework, the luckier you can be.

I define "luck" as "preparation meeting opportunity."

If you like this area of old Chinese bronzes, get Allen's book. He also has a lot of authentic Chinese pieces for sale. Not a lot of weapons, but good and authentic.

Get some of the coins and handle them. You will find that this will increase your ability to discern age. Most collectors I know best determine authenticity by feel. You will hear, "I like the pictures, but I would only give a real opinion if I could hold it."

26th May 2007, 11:46 PM	#1
Klas Larsson Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23	Chinese Ge Hi, I just found this Chinese Ge (Dagger axe) and took a chance with it, I dont know bronze weapons at all. I would be grateful for any information on it. As if it's a fake or not... but I guess it's hard to say form just pictures. Attached Images

27th May 2007, 10:27 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	There are a number of examples in the History of Steel catalogue (and the on-line version), and they are discussed in the accompanying article as well. I agree with VANDOO that the odds are not great that it is genuine, unless you can trace its provenance back at least a couple decades. I'm not sure when the repro industry really started taking off, but I'm guessing that during the Maoist era, and particularly during the Cultural Revolution (which ended in the '70s), they would not have been made at all, so it would have started later. Thus, anything that can't be traced back before the '80s is more likely a repro than not. Last edited by Mark; 27th May 2007 at 10:44 PM.

28th May 2007, 10:55 PM	#6
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Han Dynasty Ge. Provenance Anthony Allen. In his marvelous book, "Allen's Authentication of Ancient Chinese Bronzes" he suggests that you buy some Chinese coins (cheap) and can have a good look at what the patina should be like. http://www.selectbooks.com.sg/getTitle.cfm?SBNum=32688 (you can find it cheaper, about $80) Attached Images

29th May 2007, 04:43 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	SEARCH IN THE OLD FORUM FOR "REPLICAS CURRENTLY IN VOUGE" POSTED 8/07/2001 BY VANDOO. UNFORTUNATELY MOST PICTURES ARE GONE BUT THERE IS A GOOD PICTURE OF A SHOP SHOWING WHAT WAS TO BE SEEN REPEATED MANY TIMES IN MANY CITIES IN CHINA. PHILIP TOM ALSO CONFIRMS THE PRESENCE OF CHINESE COLLECTORS GOING BACK A LONG WAY. A BRONZE FAKE HAD TO BE VERY WELL MADE AND PATINATED IN ORDER TO SELL TO MANY COLLECTORS AS MANY WERE VERY WELL EDUCATED IN ANTIQUE BRONZE ITEMS. THERE ARE MANY OTHER POSTS ON BRONZE ITEMS IN THE OLD FORUMS ALSO. BELOW ARE SOME PICTURES OF ONES I HAVE MOST I CONSIDER REPLICAS EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE THE OFFICIAL CHINESE STAMP AND SEAL. THE LAST PICTURE HAS SOME REAL ONES BUT THEY ARE NOT BRONZE EXCEPT FOR THE TWO AX HEADS. SOME OF THE OTHER KNIVES ARE COMMON TOURIST ITEMS SHOWY WITH FAIR WORKMANSHIP AND MOST IMPORTANT CHEAP. Attached Images

27th May 2007, 02:51 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY RULE OF THUMB ON THESE IS IF IT WAS BOUGHT RECENTLY FROM A DEALER IN CHINA ITS A REPO AS ANYTHING OVER 100 YEARS OLD IS FORBIDDEN EXPORT. THE ODDS ARE LONG ON GETTING A REAL ANTIQUE CHINESE BRONZE BUT I SUPPOSE IT COULD HAPPEN, BUT IF THE SELLER KNEW IT WAS THE REAL THING IT WOULD BE EXPENSIVE. I DON'T MIND BUYING A GOOD BRONZE REPLICA FOR A FAIR PRICE BUT UNFORTUNATELY MANY ARE PUT UP FOR SALE AS THE REAL THING WITH TOO BIG OF A PRICE ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ADD IN THE RIDICULOUS S&H CHARGES FROM CHINA. SEARCH THE OLD FORUMS FOR BRONZE AND YOU WILL FIND SOME OLD POSTS. ANY BRONZE ITEM WITH A OPENING BID OF .99 CENTS AND A S&H FROM CHINA OF $80.00 TO 150.00 ON EBAY IS A RIP OFF FOR SURE.

27th May 2007, 01:17 PM	#3
Klas Larsson Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23	Hi Vandoo, Thanks for your advice. This was bought from the USA, and there where other items sold that where Chinese and definitely genuine, from Qing era. But the seller didn't really know what he had, and neither do I, in this case...

28th May 2007, 04:44 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	BEFORE THE RISE OF COMMUNISM IN CHINA THERE WAS A CLASS OF PEOPLE WHO HAD ENOUGH EDUCATION AND MONEY TO COLLECT ANTIQUES. SOME VERY GOOD QUALITY BRONZE WORK WAS DONE DURING THIS TIME AS THERE WAS A MARKET. THE REPLICAS HAD TO BE VERY GOOD TO FOOL OR INTREST A COLLECTOR , IT WAS DIFFICULT TO TELL THE FAKE FROM THE REAL EXCEPT THEY MADE TOO MANY OF THE MORE POPULAR ITEMS WHICH GAVE IT AWAY. WHEN COMMUNISM TOOK OVER THESE COLLECTORS WERE EITHER DEAD, FLED TO OTHER COUNTRYS OR LOST EVERYTHING THEY HAD AND WERE SENT OFF TO BE RE-EDUCATED TO BE POLITICALLY CORRECT. CHINA MORE OR LESS ISOLATED ITSELF AND THESE ITEMS JUST SET IN SHOPS THRUOUT THE COUNTRY WITH NO ONE TO BUY. WHEN cHINA STARTED TO MAKE A MOVE TO MODERNIZE AND COMPETE FOR WORLD POWER TRADE STARTED AND A LOT OF THESE ITEMS HIT THE MARKET THOUGH THEY ARE NOT ORIGINALS THE REPLICAS COULD BE OVER 100 YEARS OLD. I HAVE NOTED THAT THE BRONZE INDUSTRY HAS STARTED UP AGAIN BUT OFTEN THE QUALITY OF WORKMANSHIP IS NOT AS GOOD AS THE OLDER ITEMS AND THERE ARE EVEN FANTASY BRONZE AGE SWORDS. SO THERE IS A MIX OF ITEMS OF VARYING AGE AND WORKMANSHIP ON THE MARKET AT PRESENT.

29th May 2007, 01:49 AM	#7
Klas Larsson Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23	That was a lot of good advice. Both books looks very interesting, and as there is not much literature on Chinese weapons, I must get those. Thank you both for those books. It was interesting to hear that there are 100 years old bronze replicas! Collecting has a very long tradition in China, I have heard, so that makes sense. I realize it's impossible to say something definite on just pictures but I was interested in all opinions, and qualified guesses. I my inexperienced eye the Ge look as it have some heavy patina, and also the damage gave me a feeling that it might be worth a chance. But I really dont know what to look for. And it lacks any provenance. So fairly low chance I guess.