Unusual Visayan features?

[VVV]

I just picked up this old Panay Tenegre.
Except the rare Bat-style of the Bakunawa-hilt it also has a rattan binding at the handle I haven't seen before.

Any comments and other reference pictures of these features?

Michael

[Spunjer]

do you have this on hand, michael? it doesn't appear to be rattan; rather, it's twine, similar to the one at the base of the handle on mine. love the carving on the grip of your handle tho.


p.s.
photobucket is acting up and couldn't resize my photo. will try again when i get home

[VVV]

Ron,

I will be back home tomorrow and inspect the binding closer.
Look forward to see yours, too.

Michael

[VANDOO]

A BEAUTIFUL SWORD I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT EXACT HANDLE BEFORE I LIKE IT A LOT. I AGREE IT LOOKS MORE LIKE CORD THAN RATTAN PERHAPS SENNET (COCONUT HUSK CORD) OR SOMETHING ELSE STAINED TO LOOK LIKE IT. PUT ON TO IMPROVE GRIP.
THE SCABBARD LOOKS NEWER BUT STILL HAS SOME AGE AS IT HAS THE PROPER FORM OF RAISED DESIGNS. I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED WHAT THESE DESIGNS MEAN ARE THEY SYMBOLS TO IDENTIFY THE TRIBE OR ARE THEY A TALSMANIC SYMBOL FOR PROTECTION? THEY STRIKE ME AS SOMETHING MORE THAN SIMPLE DECORATION.
THAT IS SOME BEAUTIFUL WOOD IT IS LAYING ON TOO IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO NOTICE AS MY EYES WERE DRAWN TO THE SWORD.

[VVV]

Thanks Barry,

I don't have a clue about the designs on the scabbard either.
Maybe Lorenz or some of the other collectors have some ideas?

The wood it's laying on however is my dinner table.

Michael

[Robert]

Hello Michael, I am amazed at the great looking swords that you seem to be able to locate. This has got to be one of my favorites. Wonderful carving on the hilt with a beautiful blade combined with a nicely carved scabbard "even if the scabbard turns out a later replacement" it is an item that anyone would be more than happy to have in their collection One question though, what are the two green items at the throat of the scabbard? I would have to agree with Berry on the cording on the hilt, it does look like it could be sennet to me also. My congratulation on your new addition and I must say that I am very envious of you good fortune.


Regards,
Robert

[Spunjer]

ok, photobucket is back in session, lol.
notice the twine at the base of the handle. i believe it's similar to the type used on yours. notice also, on another visayan handle: similar type of twine, i think...

[VVV]

Thanks Robert,
I am not yet sure what the green items on the scabbard are. I will check closer when I am back home again.

Nice references, Ron.
Do you see any traces of that your resembling sword also had twine all the way along the handle like mine?
What is the guard on your second one made off?

Michael

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by VVV

What is the guard on your second one made off?

Michael

Looks like a piece of antler.

[VVV]

Back home again.
My guess is that the green stuff is from some kind of a beetle.

Michael

[kai]

Congrats, Michael & Ron: Very nice examples!

Without having had a chance to handle these, my first guess would be that the (laquered?/shellac?) twine on Michael's hilt got added to keep the developing crack from becoming larger (for an original design idea it distracts too much from the nice carving IMHO) while the twine at the base of Ron's hilt may just help to keep the guard from wiggling...

My guess is that the green stuff is from some kind of a beetle.

That looks more like a late, non-traditional addition to me. Is there any precedence for the use of beetle wings in Visayan culture?

Regards,
Kai

[Spunjer]

Do you see any traces of that your resembling sword also had twine all the way along the handle like mine?

no trace on the handle itself, but as far as the twine between the handguard and handle, i believe kai hit it right on the head. pics enclosed are close ups of the twine. notice how it was wrapped around haphazardly (pics included).

What is the guard on your second one made off?

i haven't figured out what it is yet. i keep thinking it's ivory, but freebooter might be right, in that it's a piece of antler.

[Spunjer]

you know, the handle on your piece reminds me so much of how some barung handles were wrapped in a similar fashion...

[VANDOO]

ITS LIKELY BEETLE WING COVERS FROM A BEETLE IN THE FAMILY BUPRESTIDAE. THESE COLORFUL METALIC BEETLES ARE USED BY TRIBES IN MANY AREAS OF THE WORLD FOR DECORATION AND JEWELRY. HERE IS A PICTURE OF A SPECIES FROM BORNEO, I COULDN'T FIND A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE FROM THE PHILIPPINES. NOTE ONE WING COVER REMOVED.

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

ITS LIKELY BEETLE WING COVERS FROM A BEETLE IN THE FAMILY BUPRESTIDAE. THESE COLORFUL METALIC BEETLES ARE USED BY TRIBES IN MANY AREAS OF THE WORLD FOR DECORATION AND JEWELRY. HERE IS A PICTURE OF A SPECIES FROM BORNEO, I COULDN'T FIND A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE FROM THE PHILIPPINES. NOTE ONE WING COVER REMOVED.

I have seen a mandau once with a piece of beetle wing cover under a rattan winding. I think it must be pure decoration. I can not recall that beetles have some spiritual meaning

Nice piece BTW

Best regards,
Willem

[VVV]

It seems as Kai found the answer for the twine and Barry found the family of beetles.
When I use a loupe the wings on the scabbard have the same kind of dented surface as on your picture.
Ron, I was also thinking about the wrapping of the barong handles when I first saw it.

Michael

[Dimasalang]

I'd like to add one more thing here:
That sword is AWESOME!

That is all.

[migueldiaz]

Saw this thread just now.

Wow, nice one Michael! Skål!

I have yet to figure out whether there's a special name for these 'bat'-pommeled Visayan swords. And I'm also still finding out whether parts of Luzon adjacent to the Visayas also used this sword (because some of these swords are not chisel-ground as we all know, like my example below).

My only input is that the pattern of the cord binding on the hilt is similar to the carving on my similar sword. Thus it sure looks that Michael's example is the older one. And my example would then be a latter less ornate version, and in which hilt the style of the cord binding was mimicked.

Very nice example indeed!

PS - As for the interpretation of the carving on the scabbard, I'm preparing another thread (Southeast Asian sword symbolism), based on what I gathered in those European museums I've been to recently. Hope it'll shed some light on the matter. Thanks.

[VVV]

Thanks Lorenz,

Nice to see your sword and the similar pattern on the handle.
I look forward to read your coming thread with some of the results from your study tour.

Skål to you too

Michael

[migueldiaz]

Thanks too, Michael.

And yes, will surely post that new thread very soon ... the only problem is, the A Very Old Kris thread is distracting me!

[Bangkaya]

Hello,
This is an Akeanon talibung with a linamay type blade, not an Ilonggo tenegre. The type of bakunawa pommel with the shorter nose and longer "eye stems" and "ears" sets it apart from other Akeanon talibungs with the typical elongated nose or folded nose variety. Generally, these more "bat-like" features are found from the panday clans that more coastal such as in Makato, Ibajay, and Tangalan. The long nose or folded nose variety are more of a highland variety usually associated with the sword making traditions of Malinao, Libacao and Balete. It is interesting to not that the the original poster's talibung has a symmetrical round guard, whereas most of these "bat-like" bakunawa hilt talibungs (such as Spunger's) have asymmetrical guards more similar to the sanduko of Capiz.

As for the beetle wing decoration, it is said that this particular beetle has certain anting-anting qualities. Yet it is also said that the number of beetle wings also marks the number of times the talibung has been used.

Regards,
Bangkaya

[VVV]

Thanks Bangkaya,

I am still happy if I can trace a sword to a specific island, like Panay, but obviously you know how to differ them between regions and village.
When you find time it would be very interesting if you could, maybe on a separate thread, share your knowledge on which features that indicate which sub-region on the more usual Visayan swords?

Michael

[migueldiaz]

Thanks too, Bangkaya. And welcome to the forum!

On a similar note, would any of the terms below pertain also to the swords under discussion? To err on the side of caution, I'm copying-and-pasting what I posted earlier in another thread. Thanks in advance and the info you've just provided above is truly appreciated.

The terms are coming from a 1930's Ilonggo-English dictionary by Kaufmann:

sandúkò: A kind of long bolo with a curved point. (cf. ginúnting).

garanás: Knife, especially one used for cutting meshes, repairing nets, etc. (cf. urutúp, galanás, súndang, kotsílyo, lansítas).

ginúnting: A kind of war-knife, large bolo. (cf. siántong, sandúkò, binángon, íwà).

siántong: A kind of bolo, but straight and longer than the ordinary binángon and having the point slightly curved. (cf. sandúkò).

súndang: Knife, kitchen-knife, a small stiff knife, dagger, sword, table-knife. (cf. tulóslok—fork; irós—spoon; garanás, urutóp, lansítas, kotsílyo, binángon, íwa, etc.).

talibóng: A large, heavy bolo. (cf. sandúkò, siántong, binángon).

urutúp: (B) A knife, anything with a sharp edge for cutting, as a piece of sharp stone, bone, tin, wood, bamboo, etc. (cf. súndang, garanás; ótop).

túmbak: A harpoon, barbed spear or javelin, prong, fork. (cf.bángkaw—lance).

bángkaw: A lance, spear. Ang kílid sang Aton Ginóo hinandusán sang bángkaw ni Longíno. The side of Our Lord was pierced by the lance of Longinus.

kinabasî, kinabásì: Like—, in the form of—, a kabásì-fish; sharppointed. Bángkaw nga kinabasî. A lance with a straight, sharp point. (cf.kabásì, pinángdan).

pinángdan: Like a—, in the form of a—, screw-pine; twisted like a screw-pine. Bángkaw nga pinángdan. A lance with a long drawn and twisted point.

kinúgon: Made as pointed or as sharp as cogon-grass; the point of a spear,lance, arrow, etc. (cf. kógon).

lántip: The double-edged point of a lance, spear, or the like.

binángon: The Philippine long knife carried in a scabbard on the hip by workmen. The scabbard or case is called "tagúb" (cf. bólo, pinútì, siántong, sandúkò, ginúnting, talibóng, kális, súndang, uták).

lansétas: (Sp. lanceta) Lancet, fleam, a farrier's sharp knife used in phlebotomy; a pocket-knife.

pinútì: Knife, bolo, any cutting tool made of steel. (cf. putî).

related terms:

baláraw: Dagger, poniard, stiletto, knife. (cf. dága, punyál).

dága: (Sp. daga) Dagger, poniard, stiletto. (cf. íwà, súndang, pinútì).

kotsílyo: (Sp. cochillo) Knife, table-knife. (cf. súndang).

punyál: (Sp. puñal) Dagger, poniard, stiletto. (cf. íwà, dága, súndang, etc.).

íwà: Dagger; poniard, dirk, knife. (cf. dága, binángon, talibóng, sandúkò, ginúnting, kotsílyo, súndang, garanás, urutúp, lansétas).

uták: Knife, bolo. See binángon.

espáda: (Sp. espada) Sword, sabre, falchion, scimitar, brand, rapier, side-arm. (cf. binángon, talibúng, sandúkò, ginúnting, kális).

kális: (Sp. cris) The Malayan dagger, creese or cris, a sword as used by the Moros.

sáble: (Sp. sable) Sabre, sword. (cf. súndang, binángon, talibóng, etc.).

kampílan: A large, long kind of sword; hanger, cutlass.

lánsa: (Sp. lanza) Lance. (cf. bángkaw).

bidyíw: A spear, harpoon. (cf. bángkaw—lance).

sibát: A spear, a kind of barbed lance. Palayógi siá sang sibát. Throw the spear at him. Sibatá ang talunón. Throw a spear at the wild boar. Spear the wild boar.

sumbilíng: (H) Any missile in the nature of a javelin, spear, lance or the like.

orongán: The (wooden) shaft of a lance, spear, etc. (cf. unungán, ulungán).

kalásag: Shield, cover, protection, defense; escutcheon.

tamíng: Shield, buckler. (cf. kalásag; panamíng—to use a shield).

kalólot: To apply any sticky, viscous material. Ginakalólot sa ápal sang binángon ang tagók sang kamánsi. The juice of the bread-fruit is used for fastening the handle of a bolo.

tagúb: Sheath, scabbard, case; to sheathe, put into a scabbard, provide or make a scabbard. Itagúb ang ímo espáda. Sheathe your sword. Tágbi (Tagubí) ang ímo binángon. Provide a scabbard for your bolo.

panílo: (Sp. pañuelo) Cloth, cloth-band, collar, neckcloth; the strip of cloth or leather used for fastening the sheath of a bolo to the hip. (cf. balióg; pányo)

[Bangkaya]

Hello,
In regards to your question, migueldiaz, it is a matter of perspective. The list that you have provided is a list in the Ilonggo dialect. Only one of the examples above (the first one posted by Spunjer) is an Ilonggo example. The rest are either from Akean (Aklan) or Capiz where they both speak different dialects. If you show a certain sword from Panay to 4 different people of the island from the 4 major ethnolinguistic groups living there (one from Antique, Aklan, Capiz, and Iloilo) you will get 4 different answers...and they would all be correct.

In some regions of Panay, certain words are shared between the ethnolinguistic groups, but can mean different things to certain people. For example and one that particularly pertains to this group is the term SANDUKO. In Capiz the sanduko is their particular sword they are mostly associated with. However, in Aklan, the sanduko is a short-broad utility knife mostly used in the kitchen similar to what the Ilonggos call a plamenko. According to your list, what the Ilonggos would call a sanduko is a long bolo with a curved point. If you showed an Akeanon a sanduko from Capiz, he would say it was just a talibung with a shorter, broader bakatong blade. It's all semantics. Another example would be the ginunting. To the Ilonggos the ginunting is a particular fighting binangon. But in Aklan, the ginunting is just one particular blade style of a talibung. However, both groups would recognize their swords as ginuntings. Furthermore, the word binangon is not recognized in Aklan, but it is I believe either in Antique or Capiz.

So in general, one should not be too hung up on particular nomenclature for these swords. They all fall under the general bisayan term of sundang. It is even safer to just call them bolos since it would be recognized as such throughout the Philippines. But if you wish to be more specific, it is safe to call any sword from Antique or Aklan a talibung, a sword from Capiz a sanduko, and a sword from Iloilo either a binangon or talibong.

Only when we can identify a particular sword to a specific region or ethnolinguistic group should we call the sword by its proper name in the respective dialect. However, it's the identifying part that will prove most challenging. For example, the highland Akeanon talibung is often mistaken for a sanduko from Capiz. They are almost identical and some would argue that they are just the same sword only separated by ethnolinguistic groups or physical boundaries such as a river or mountain range. And this holds true in the central highlands where the various bukidnon tribes don't recognize any geopolitical boundaries and can inhabit areas in Capiz, Aklan, and Iloilo. Only an experienced eye can spot the minuscule esoteric differences amongst the swords of Panay. Most of them look the same, but it's these small stylistic differences that define the sword and the people who carry them.

But that is another subject entirely....

Best regards,
Bangkaya

[kai]

Hello Bangkaya,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm excited to get so much valuable input on Visayan blades from you! The forum has been somewhat quiet on this front for a while and I am looking forward to seeing more discussions!

Regards,
Kai

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Bangkaya

Hello,
In regards to your question, migueldiaz, it is a matter of perspective. The list that you have provided is a list in the Ilonggo dialect. Only one of the examples above (the first one posted by Spunjer) is an Ilonggo example. The rest are either from Akean (Aklan) or Capiz where they both speak different dialects. If you show a certain sword from Panay to 4 different people of the island from the 4 major ethnolinguistic groups living there (one from Antique, Aklan, Capiz, and Iloilo) you will get 4 different answers...and they would all be correct ...

Bangkaya, your knowledge about these matters is truly wonderful! Thank you very much indeed for sharing these things.

On a related matter, the swords above have all been generically called tinegre. Is the term used in Capiz and Aklan also? Because what is common knowledge here in the forum is that it's a Panay Island term, i.e., the term is not only confined to Iloilo, but is prevalent over the entire island. On the other hand, we can also see from the 1930s Ilonggo dictionary excerpted above that the term may not be an original Ilonggo word after all.

Hope you can comment on this, too. And thanks in advance.

Best wishes.

[Bangkaya]

The term tinegre/tenegre is confusing indeed. It usually is associated with swords from Panay, but I believe it is a termed coined by outsiders not indigenous to the island. Throughout my travels in Antique, Aklan, and Capiz I have yet to meet someone that knows what a tinegre/tenegre is. I've visited many panday forges, palengke stalls, fishermen, farmers, etc. and most would look at me with bit of confusion. When shown a photo of a tinegre/tenegre, most would say, "oh...talibung!" Or "sanduko" in a few places in Capiz. In Iloilo, the response would be the same or "binangon." In Madurriao, Iloilo I was able to find one old panday that actually knew the term tinegre/tenegre. He was very specific saying that it was just a fighting talibung or binangon with the traditionally carved bakunawa pommel, at which point he started pointing at the teeth. When asked if it was an Ilonggo term, he said he believes it's a name that "outsiders call our swords."

Which brings us to the etymology of the word "tinegre." The root word is tigre which is tiger in tagalog, cebuano, and ilonggo. "Tinegre" is "as a tiger" or "tiger-like." This explains why the the old panday pointed to the teeth on the bakunawa face on the pommel since the teeth look very much like those on a tiger.

This was also explained to me by an old escrimador (who is no longer with us) that was not from the island of Panay. He said that was what they called the bolos of the Ilonggos. But he couldn't remember if it was because the pommel was like the face of a tiger or that the blade was like a tiger's tooth.

Hopefully, this clarifies things. I still use the term "tinegre" when referring to Ilonggo swords with the bakunawa pommel, whether it is binangon, talibong, pinuti, ginunting, etc. But then again, I'm not Ilonggo so I consider myself an outsider as well.

Regards,
Bankaya

[migueldiaz]

Thanks again for the additional info! Much appreciated as usual

[Spunjer]

He was very specific saying that it was just a fighting talibung or binangon

^^^ this. same explanation i got from one of the old timers, not necessarily a specific blade profile, but rather the intention of what it was for.


welcome datu!