Large Silver Dha/Daab/Darb for Comment

laEspadaAncha · 6th March 2011, 08:46 PM

For all the Dhaphiliacs out there

This came out of the estate of the late CINCPAC (Commander in Chief, Pacific Command) Ulysses S. Grant Sharp Jr., who enjoyed a long and illustrious 37-year career in the U.S. Navy, ascending through the ranks to become a four-star admiral, and serving as CINCPAC from 1964-1968 (and as CINCPACFLT for the three years prior). He was featured on the cover of Time magazine in '64, and was one of the chief decision makers during the Gulf of Tonken incident that led to the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

As part of his senior rank and status, he served in a high-level diplomatic capacity and his estate included many gifts from heads of state and other high-level foreign dignitaries. This dha (daab? darb? dharb?) was one such gift, bestowed upon him by order of the King of Thailand in the 1960s. The scabbard and hilt are made of finely chased silver over wood. They are separated into a series of panels; the hilt with foliate scrollwork and the scabbard with figural panels (except for the bottom panel, which like the hilt, is of decorative scrollwork). The blade is laminated and of heavy triangular cross-section, and the spine measures 3/8 of an inch thick at the hilt (though it tapers quickly). In appears to show both age and signs of use as evidenced by 2-3 edged nicks towards the point. The sword is quite large overall, with a length of about 42 inches in the scabbard.

Any comments, and in particular, ideas with regards to age would be most welcomed.

Battara · 6th March 2011, 09:04 PM

Looks like a wonderful piece and even better with provenance!

Would you please post pictures of the pommel and one of the panels?

laEspadaAncha · 7th March 2011, 01:37 AM

Hi Jose,

Thanks...

I'm including a closer photo of the pommel and some panels, but I will have to wait for daylight again before I can take any additional photos of the pommel...

Nathaniel · 7th March 2011, 02:07 AM

Beautiful Silver Dha. Thanks for sharing the close shots

Interesting history.

This type of silver dha I would guess more northern Thailand/Burma/Yunnan area....Kachin/Jingpo people, but maybe others will have a better idea???

I remember one similar owned by a forum member:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6366
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...20&postcount=1

laEspadaAncha · 7th March 2011, 02:40 AM

Thank you Nathaniel... and much thanks for posting the link to a similar example.

I've combed through Mark Bowditch's site looking for similar examples, but didn't find anything that was as close a match (stylistically at least) as this one (blade profile aside).

There were quite a few other very interesting items in his estate I either had to pass on or missed out on acquiring (including other items from the Thai royal family), though I was grateful to have the opportunity to acquire this.

Nathaniel · 7th March 2011, 03:03 AM

laEspadaAncha,

Very interesting. This was just the first dha that came to mind. I'm no expert, but that is fantastic that you have providence with your beautiful dha, especially since so few come with such great information.

By chance could you take any further pictures? It's hard to clearly make out the scenes pictured in each of the panels. That would be wonderful to see when you have time!!!

Do you have any other pictures of the other Thai Royal items???

Thanks for sharing! Always love seeing the these type of swords.

Nathaniel · 7th March 2011, 03:19 AM

laEspadaAncha,

You mentioned the length of the sword is 42 inches in the scabbard. Could you also specify the length of the handle and blade individually?

Battara · 7th March 2011, 03:42 AM

Mil Gracia Espada Ancha! Lots of chasing work all over the piece!

Nathaniel, which tribe or people would this have belonged?

laEspadaAncha · 7th March 2011, 03:43 AM

Hi Nathaniel,

Unfortunately, the medals, letter, and signed photograph (of the king) were all rather expensive... The photograph (signed and with a note from the king) was about as expensive as the sword, and the medals (of which I know so little) were priced out of reach. There were other items that had belonged to the admiral I wanted to acquire (and did), so I unfortunately had to pass on these.

I'll take better pictures of the entire set of panels over the next few days, but in the meantime here's another that I've attached as slightly larger image... The scabbard is covered in images of men working. Upon closer review, the panels on the hilt have fauna in addition to the foliate scrollwork.

Regards,

Chris

Nathaniel · 7th March 2011, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Mil Gracia Espada Ancha! Lots of chasing work all over the piece!

Nathaniel, which tribe or people would this have belonged?

Jingpo is the chinese name. Kachin is the Burmese name. They live in India, Burma and China.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingpo_people

laEspadaAncha · 7th March 2011, 07:27 AM

Hi Nathaniel,

While the decorative work does match that ID'd as Kachin in the thread to which you provided a link above, doesn't the blade in your opinion speak to a more likely Karen or Shan origin (as per Ian, Mark and Andrew's article written for the Macao exhibit catalog)? The spine is peaked at the forte, which as per the article is more common to Shan (style) blades. Also, wouldn't it seem odd to present a visiting foreign dignitary with a gift from an area relatively remote from the historical seat of Thai power and influence? Or is there a more prevalent sense of cross-cultural identity that blurs the lines between historically divergent ethnic groups and the stylistic differences as they appear in their respective traditional weaponry?

Nathaniel · 8th March 2011, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi Nathaniel,

While the decorative work does match that ID'd as Kachin in the thread to which you provided a link above, doesn't the blade in your opinion speak to a more likely Karen or Shan origin (as per Ian, Mark and Andrew's article written for the Macao exhibit catalog)? The spine is peaked at the forte, which as per the article is more common to Shan (style) blades. Also, wouldn't it seem odd to present a visiting foreign dignitary with a gift from an area relatively remote from the historical seat of Thai power and influence? Or is there a more prevalent sense of cross-cultural identity that blurs the lines between historically divergent ethnic groups and the stylistic differences as they appear in their respective traditional weaponry?

LaEspanaAncha,

I went back a reread the HOS article and looked at a few books and I am mistaken to say Kachin. Shan style does seem to be more likely to fit the bill!! So northern Thailand could be included since the Shan Burmese where frequently trading, fighting and living there as well. As you mentioned there are frequently a mixing of different groups and styles of weapons.

But as you say does seem rather curious that the king of Thailand would give a sword of northern style versus a more central Thai style which would be more of the norm for Bangkok. Or rather during the 1960's the swords more commonly given by HRM would be more of the European ceremonial military dress saber or dagger with the elephant head pommel. HRM during that time period would have been still active in handing out these sabers to all academy graduates of five branches of the Thai Military (Navy, Police, Air Force, Marine & Army). A Thai style European saber would be more of the common type sword I would think the King would given a visiting dignitary/ representative.

laEspadaAncha · 8th March 2011, 04:16 AM

Hi Nathaniel,

There were actually quite a few honorary gifts, including a large (2+ feet), stunning gold (gilt? plated? solid?) traditional Thai long boat in a glass and hardwood display case, a letter from HRM bestowing upon him an honorary title (Grand Knight?) in a Thai chivalric order (Order of the White Elephant) along with a medal and a sword, several other medals, the dha, another letter, and a photograph signed and including a note. Several of the items (including the dha, the honorary title, and possibly other items?) were actually bestowed upon him by a high-ranking official in the government (Minister of Defense IIRC) by order of HRM.

There were other gifts from both heads of state and high-level foreign dignitaries from several other nations, including the Philippines, Japan, Taiwan, and other Pacific Rim nations with whom we maintained good diplomatic relations during the height of the Cold War. In each case, the gifts (with the exception of the medals and the honorary title) were consistently representative of their respective countries' cultures.

Regards,

Chris

Nathaniel · 8th March 2011, 05:18 AM

Chris,

Thanks for the additional detail information... fascinating. Reminds me of this book:

Treasures of Two Nations: Thai Royal Gifts to the United States of America by Lisa McQuail, (published in 1997 by: Asian Cultural History Program, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. 20560-0112, USA)

http://www.mnh.si.edu/treasures/frameset_bookorders.htm

Andrew · 11th March 2011, 03:55 PM

Interesting sword, particularly with the provenance. Looks like the blade is laminated, so I'm inclined to believe this is of higher quality than substantially similar examples I've seen.

I agree this is likely of northern Thai manufacture (perhaps even by a Laotian maker). The repousse work is interesting, but (in my personal opinion only) not particularly well executed.

Mid-late 20th manufacture (contemporary to the time given as a gift). By that time, such swords were not really in regular use as weapons or regalia in urban, sophisticated circles, so I agree a more typical gift would be a western-style saber with Thai royal motifs.

Not a "tourist" weapon, but not an antique either. Probably manufactured specifically to be given as a royal gift.

Best,
Andrew

laEspadaAncha · 11th March 2011, 05:00 PM

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for chiming in.

One point of curiosity - the blade appears older than the fittings, and shows signs of use (not grandchild "abuse," mind you, but use)... Was it common to re-mount older blades as was commonly done with some keris? Also, if it had been made as a gift to present to the admiral, wouldn't one expect to see a commemorative inscription of some sort?

Regards,

Chris

ETA a photo of the blade tip below:

Andrew · 11th March 2011, 09:57 PM

Hi Chris. Always difficult to determine when/how such damage as you highlight above appeared. Given that the nicks and dings are at the approximate center of percussion (where one would expect a skilled swordsman to be placing cuts), they may well be caused by combat or training.

The only edge damage I've really ever been comfortable attributing to edge parrying or combat has been on a few swords with obvious repairs, where I could literally see tiny hammer marks, etc.

Otherwise, who knows what fiend (grandchild?

) played Dragon Slayer in the backyard...

And, yes, I have seen fine older blades of this type remounted. The general shape of that blade is consistant with later Thai swords, but the obvious laminate construction may well indicate it is older than the mounts, as *most* later blades I've handled are not laminated.

Inscriptions? Sometimes.

Andrew

6th March 2011, 08:46 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Large Silver Dha/Daab/Darb for Comment For all the Dhaphiliacs out there This came out of the estate of the late CINCPAC (Commander in Chief, Pacific Command) Ulysses S. Grant Sharp Jr., who enjoyed a long and illustrious 37-year career in the U.S. Navy, ascending through the ranks to become a four-star admiral, and serving as CINCPAC from 1964-1968 (and as CINCPACFLT for the three years prior). He was featured on the cover of Time magazine in '64, and was one of the chief decision makers during the Gulf of Tonken incident that led to the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. As part of his senior rank and status, he served in a high-level diplomatic capacity and his estate included many gifts from heads of state and other high-level foreign dignitaries. This dha (daab? darb? dharb?) was one such gift, bestowed upon him by order of the King of Thailand in the 1960s. The scabbard and hilt are made of finely chased silver over wood. They are separated into a series of panels; the hilt with foliate scrollwork and the scabbard with figural panels (except for the bottom panel, which like the hilt, is of decorative scrollwork). The blade is laminated and of heavy triangular cross-section, and the spine measures 3/8 of an inch thick at the hilt (though it tapers quickly). In appears to show both age and signs of use as evidenced by 2-3 edged nicks towards the point. The sword is quite large overall, with a length of about 42 inches in the scabbard. Any comments, and in particular, ideas with regards to age would be most welcomed.

7th March 2011, 02:07 AM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Beautiful Silver Dha. Thanks for sharing the close shots Interesting history. This type of silver dha I would guess more northern Thailand/Burma/Yunnan area....Kachin/Jingpo people, but maybe others will have a better idea??? I remember one similar owned by a forum member: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6366 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...20&postcount=1 Last edited by Nathaniel; 7th March 2011 at 02:52 AM.

7th March 2011, 07:27 AM	#11
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nathaniel, While the decorative work does match that ID'd as Kachin in the thread to which you provided a link above, doesn't the blade in your opinion speak to a more likely Karen or Shan origin (as per Ian, Mark and Andrew's article written for the Macao exhibit catalog)? The spine is peaked at the forte, which as per the article is more common to Shan (style) blades. Also, wouldn't it seem odd to present a visiting foreign dignitary with a gift from an area relatively remote from the historical seat of Thai power and influence? Or is there a more prevalent sense of cross-cultural identity that blurs the lines between historically divergent ethnic groups and the stylistic differences as they appear in their respective traditional weaponry? Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 7th March 2011 at 08:07 AM. Reason: ETA more questions...

11th March 2011, 05:00 PM	#16
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Andrew, Thank you for chiming in. One point of curiosity - the blade appears older than the fittings, and shows signs of use (not grandchild "abuse," mind you, but use)... Was it common to re-mount older blades as was commonly done with some keris? Also, if it had been made as a gift to present to the admiral, wouldn't one expect to see a commemorative inscription of some sort? Regards, Chris ETA a photo of the blade tip below: Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 11th March 2011 at 05:50 PM. Reason: ETA Photo

6th March 2011, 09:04 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,189	Looks like a wonderful piece and even better with provenance! Would you please post pictures of the pommel and one of the panels?

7th March 2011, 01:37 AM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Jose, Thanks... I'm including a closer photo of the pommel and some panels, but I will have to wait for daylight again before I can take any additional photos of the pommel...

7th March 2011, 02:40 AM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Thank you Nathaniel... and much thanks for posting the link to a similar example. I've combed through Mark Bowditch's site looking for similar examples, but didn't find anything that was as close a match (stylistically at least) as this one (blade profile aside). There were quite a few other very interesting items in his estate I either had to pass on or missed out on acquiring (including other items from the Thai royal family), though I was grateful to have the opportunity to acquire this.

7th March 2011, 03:03 AM	#6
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	laEspadaAncha, Very interesting. This was just the first dha that came to mind. I'm no expert, but that is fantastic that you have providence with your beautiful dha, especially since so few come with such great information. By chance could you take any further pictures? It's hard to clearly make out the scenes pictured in each of the panels. That would be wonderful to see when you have time!!! Do you have any other pictures of the other Thai Royal items??? Thanks for sharing! Always love seeing the these type of swords.

7th March 2011, 03:19 AM	#7
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	laEspadaAncha, You mentioned the length of the sword is 42 inches in the scabbard. Could you also specify the length of the handle and blade individually?

7th March 2011, 03:42 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,189	Mil Gracia Espada Ancha! Lots of chasing work all over the piece! Nathaniel, which tribe or people would this have belonged?

7th March 2011, 03:43 AM	#9
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nathaniel, Unfortunately, the medals, letter, and signed photograph (of the king) were all rather expensive... The photograph (signed and with a note from the king) was about as expensive as the sword, and the medals (of which I know so little) were priced out of reach. There were other items that had belonged to the admiral I wanted to acquire (and did), so I unfortunately had to pass on these. I'll take better pictures of the entire set of panels over the next few days, but in the meantime here's another that I've attached as slightly larger image... The scabbard is covered in images of men working. Upon closer review, the panels on the hilt have fauna in addition to the foliate scrollwork. Regards, Chris

8th March 2011, 04:16 AM	#13
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Nathaniel, There were actually quite a few honorary gifts, including a large (2+ feet), stunning gold (gilt? plated? solid?) traditional Thai long boat in a glass and hardwood display case, a letter from HRM bestowing upon him an honorary title (Grand Knight?) in a Thai chivalric order (Order of the White Elephant) along with a medal and a sword, several other medals, the dha, another letter, and a photograph signed and including a note. Several of the items (including the dha, the honorary title, and possibly other items?) were actually bestowed upon him by a high-ranking official in the government (Minister of Defense IIRC) by order of HRM. There were other gifts from both heads of state and high-level foreign dignitaries from several other nations, including the Philippines, Japan, Taiwan, and other Pacific Rim nations with whom we maintained good diplomatic relations during the height of the Cold War. In each case, the gifts (with the exception of the medals and the honorary title) were consistently representative of their respective countries' cultures. Regards, Chris

8th March 2011, 05:18 AM	#14
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Chris, Thanks for the additional detail information... fascinating. Reminds me of this book: Treasures of Two Nations: Thai Royal Gifts to the United States of America by Lisa McQuail, (published in 1997 by: Asian Cultural History Program, Smithsonian Institution, Washington, D.C. 20560-0112, USA) http://www.mnh.si.edu/treasures/frameset_bookorders.htm

11th March 2011, 03:55 PM	#15
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Interesting sword, particularly with the provenance. Looks like the blade is laminated, so I'm inclined to believe this is of higher quality than substantially similar examples I've seen. I agree this is likely of northern Thai manufacture (perhaps even by a Laotian maker). The repousse work is interesting, but (in my personal opinion only) not particularly well executed. Mid-late 20th manufacture (contemporary to the time given as a gift). By that time, such swords were not really in regular use as weapons or regalia in urban, sophisticated circles, so I agree a more typical gift would be a western-style saber with Thai royal motifs. Not a "tourist" weapon, but not an antique either. Probably manufactured specifically to be given as a royal gift. Best, Andrew

11th March 2011, 09:57 PM	#17
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Chris. Always difficult to determine when/how such damage as you highlight above appeared. Given that the nicks and dings are at the approximate center of percussion (where one would expect a skilled swordsman to be placing cuts), they may well be caused by combat or training. The only edge damage I've really ever been comfortable attributing to edge parrying or combat has been on a few swords with obvious repairs, where I could literally see tiny hammer marks, etc. Otherwise, who knows what fiend (grandchild? ) played Dragon Slayer in the backyard... And, yes, I have seen fine older blades of this type remounted. The general shape of that blade is consistant with later Thai swords, but the obvious laminate construction may well indicate it is older than the mounts, as most later blades I've handled are not laminated. Inscriptions? Sometimes. Andrew