Unusual ? Moro kris

ariel · 25th December 2012, 01:06 AM

Not my area of knowledge or collection, but just out of interest.
This one just finished on e-bay. I would like to hear your opinions.
The blade looks to me reworked european. The top of the scabbard has nice decorations. The gangya is separate and the line is almost straight.
These are the features that drew my attention.
Was I right?
Should I have fought for it? Was it a sleeper for the New Year?

The files are too big. If anybody can resize them and put them here for posterity, I shall be grateful. ( If they are even worth showing here:-))

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-EARL...p2047675.l2557

Atlantia · 25th December 2012, 01:13 AM

Here you go

Atlantia · 25th December 2012, 01:15 AM

It's been scrubbed with sandpaper which is a shame.

The blade looks to me like it's a reused blade and the configuration of holes make me think it was once mounted as a large pata or possibly Firangi or similarly mounted blade with bars/mountings that are riveted to the blade.

ariel · 25th December 2012, 02:30 AM

First, thanks for your help with pics.
Very clever idea re. origin of holes. But, if so, it must be rather old, isn't it? To switch from the european blade to pata ( 19th cen at the latest), and then to move to Mindanao.

Battara · 25th December 2012, 05:23 AM

Lots of trade though in the region with India.......

Atlantia · 25th December 2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

First, thanks for your help with pics.
Very clever idea re. origin of holes. But, if so, it must be rather old, isn't it? To switch from the european blade to pata ( 19th cen at the latest), and then to move to Mindanao.

HI Ariel,
You are welcome.
I also have an interest in these 'anomalies' so it's always nice to see items like this one.

Sajen · 25th December 2012, 02:35 PM

Very intersting piece, thank you for posting. Haven't seen it!

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 25th December 2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

First, thanks for your help with pics.
Very clever idea re. origin of holes. But, if so, it must be rather old, isn't it? To switch from the european blade to pata ( 19th cen at the latest), and then to move to Mindanao.

Hi Ariel,

Sorry, I meant to add the I don't see any reason why the blade couldn't be very old.
The surfaces have been reworked to make it into this incarnation and then it's been recently harshly cleaned hiding any signs of age by taking it all down to bare steel.

In one pic I can almost 'see' the outline of the reinforcing bracket over the blade, what do you think?

ariel · 25th December 2012, 03:27 PM

In my dilettante opinion, the entire wide part of the blade below the gangja was formed from a separate piece and the original blade was inserted and forged there.
If that was the case, I see no reason to see the holes in the original blade. No?

Also, I do not see the bracket; rather, it is a fuller, and it stops suddenly ~ 1/5 of the way from the gangya. That's one of the reasons I suggest the existence of a separate thick piece where the blade was inserted.

A.alnakkas · 25th December 2012, 03:31 PM

I like it.. But maybe not a trade blade? The holes could have fillers (silver/gold etc) I just cant see how the wide area is created without seeing any forge lines or the blade becoming slimmer there due to flattening that area.

Spunjer · 25th December 2012, 03:38 PM

ariel, i don't think it was an indian blade. i think at one point that particular kris has that fancy plate at the widest part of the blade, belonging in the category of this particular piece: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15535
kino's example on post#7 appears to have rivets (albeit his has 4 of them going down. yours might have just two ). the profile of the blade appears to be similar to mine in which it has a slight overall curve, and if you notice, a single groove on the lower edge.
the handle on that is oriented the wrong way, btw...

adding kino's example as well.

ariel · 25th December 2012, 03:39 PM

I am with Lotfi .

ariel · 25th December 2012, 03:41 PM

And Spunger:-)
Sorry, the answers started to pour in.

Atlantia · 25th December 2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

ariel, i don't think it was an indian blade. i think at one point that particular kris has that fancy plate at the widest part of the blade, belonging in the category of this particular piece: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15535
kino's example on post#7 appears to have rivets (albeit his has 4 of them going down. yours might have just two ). the profile of the blade appears to be similar to mine in which it has a slight overall curve, and if you notice, a single groove on the lower edge.
the handle on that is oriented the wrong way, btw...

adding kino's example as well.

Ah!
Excellent catch Spunjer,
That explains the 'outline' that I can see. Bravo

ariel · 25th December 2012, 04:49 PM

So, gentlemen, with all the pics, do you have an opinion on the age and value ( NOT MONETARY!) of this kris? Any thoughts on the origin of the blade? Rarity?

Sajen · 25th December 2012, 05:13 PM

With some restore work, the plates need to added as well the baca baca and the handle seem not original anymore. When this would be done it will be a very nice kris and also rare IMHO.

I think the blade is from Sulu. Age I would guess second half of the 19th century but there are members who will know it better.

Detlef

ariel · 25th December 2012, 08:15 PM

With all the changes, what would be left of it?

Rick · 25th December 2012, 08:32 PM

I think you were wise to avoid battle over this kris, Ariel .
Fully restored (probably a lot of dollars later) you would have yourself something not quite authentic in others' eyes, I think .

I would also estimate the age of this piece a bit earlier than late 19th .

Sajen · 25th December 2012, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

With all the changes, what would be left of it?

It would come to status how it have looked originally. But's your choice, you can keep it in this status as well.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 25th December 2012, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

It would come to status how it have looked originally. But's your choice, you can keep it in this status as well.

Regards,

Detlef

I am afraid one can only guess how this blade looked originally. There is "restoration" and then there is "re-creation". I am not usually in favor of the latter and would have little interest in such a blade afterwards if it came on the market again. That is, if i knew of the changes. What is most disturbing to me is that if these re-creation jobs are done exceedingly well they become a bit of a modern forgery. Perhaps the next owner will be informed of the upgrade. Perhaps not. Eventually it may be impossible to tell one way or another. That is unfair to the next generation of collectors. We all want perfect and pristine pieces, but often enough that is just not possible. I would suggest that we all think very carefully before we embark on a project that radically changes the present physical character of our collected blade, especially when those changes can be little more than educated guess of what the original blade actually looked like.

That said i do believe that Spunger's post shows a good guess of what probably occupied the holes in this blade. I'm fairly sure this was always a kris.

Sajen · 25th December 2012, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am afraid one can only guess how this blade looked originally. There is "restoration" and then there is "re-creation". I am not usually in favor of the latter and would have little interest in such a blade afterwards if it came on the market again. That is, if i knew of the changes. What is most disturbing to me is that if these re-creation jobs are done exceedingly well they become a bit of a modern forgery. Perhaps the next owner will be informed of the upgrade. Perhaps not. Eventually it may be impossible to tell one way or another. That is unfair to the next generation of collectors. We all want perfect and pristine pieces, but often enough that is just not possible. I would suggest that we all think very carefully before we embark on a project that radically changes the present physical character of our collected blade, especially when those changes can be little more than educated guess of what the original blade actually looked like.

That said i do believe that Spunger's post shows a good guess of what probably occupied the holes in this blade. I'm fairly sure this was always a kris.

Agree with you, it's every time a narrow path you walk by restoration. I am many many times unsure byself if something should be done or not. See for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16260
Jose have given back many kris their baca-baca/asang-asang, many kris I have seen here at this place has get partly restore jobs at the handles, recently for example: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16562 or a new wrapping. Nobody from us know how they have looked originally.
The kris/kalis in question has a well preserved scabbard but the kris byself is a relict, the handle isn't original or not in it's original state anymore, the asang-asang is missing, the plates which was attached are missing as well and the blade was heavily scrubbed with sandpaper.

There will be every time different opinions what should be done but I agree again with you when there will be done a great restore to this kris it should be documented and by a possible reselling told.

By my kris (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16260) I am not really happy with the result but I think there was no other possibility to keep the scabbard.

Here is a thread from a restore Jose have done once, a kris which was a more bad relict as the one from Ariel, worth in monetary value as well in historic value nearly nothing: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kalis
Should it have been done or not? I personally think sometimes it's easy to decide and sometimes difficult.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 25th December 2012, 10:32 PM

Frankly Detlef, i think you did a great job with your restoration. First of all, we all know that sheaths will often be changed in the lifetime of a blade. So if one can restore the old sheath like you did or even create a brand new one from scratch as Jose did in the link you provide i see no real problem with that. It is just respectful to the blade to provide it with a good home.
My concern arises when we consider making physical changes to the blade such as with Ariel's example. Adding a new plate onto the blade requires a great deal of guess work and pretty much changes the blade forever.

Sajen · 25th December 2012, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Frankly Detlef, i think you did a great job with your restoration. First of all, we all know that sheaths will often be changed in the lifetime of a blade. So if one can restore the old sheath like you did or even create a brand new one from scratch as Jose did in the link you provide i see no real problem with that. It is just respectful to the blade to provide it with a good home.
My concern arises when we consider making physical changes to the blade such as with Ariel's example. Adding a new plate onto the blade requires a great deal of guess work and pretty much changes the blade forever.

First, thank you!

Jose has given this kris not only a new sheath but also new silver bands to the handle and new clamps.
Possible new plates could be plain and would be attached by rivets, easily removable when wished. By one picture Ariel provide I think you still can see how long they have been and which form they have had.

But like I have written before, there never will be an unanimous point of view and it will be a norrow path to do such a restore or not. Some will decide to do it, others not. But I think we have agreement by the handle and the clamp.

Regards,

Detlef

Spunjer · 25th December 2012, 11:46 PM

Detlef, i can, up to a point, see adding a baka-baka. but the problem with the plate is, we don't have a clue of its significance. is it merely for decoration, or does it have anything to do with something else? by adding a plain plate, what would be the significance of it? i was told at one time that having talismanic symbols is not by choice of the warrior. i thought about this and it make sense. as superstitious as these warriors were, you would think all blades will have some type of magical symbols. the plate might have some type of magical significance for all we know.

Sajen · 26th December 2012, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

Detlef, i can, up to a point, see adding a baka-baka. but the problem with the plate is, we don't have a clue of its significance. is it merely for decoration, or does it have anything to do with something else? by adding a plain plate, what would be the significance of it? i was told at one time that having talismanic symbols is not by choice of the warrior. i thought about this and it make sense. as superstitious as these warriors were, you would think all blades will have some type of magical symbols. the plate might have some type of magical significance for all we know.

Ron, yes, at this point of view I have to agree.

Battara · 26th December 2012, 02:12 AM

Since my name has been mentioned several times, I would like to way in a little.

It is always a difficult issue to restore a piece or not. Some recreation is involved, although what I do is based on research on the tribal art patterns, other tribal pieces, the time period of development, etc.

I guess a bigger question is how much restoration? I figure that radical restoration that either involves replacing half the original work could be called reconstruction, or if it means swapping/cobbling pieces together then it could be called a monstrosity. I would not apply this to newly made pieces.

This particular piece in question seems to be on the borderline, especially since this involves the soul of the piece - the blade. It would require more than just replacing lost inlay.

25th December 2012, 01:06 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Unusual ? Moro kris Not my area of knowledge or collection, but just out of interest. This one just finished on e-bay. I would like to hear your opinions. The blade looks to me reworked european. The top of the scabbard has nice decorations. The gangya is separate and the line is almost straight. These are the features that drew my attention. Was I right? Should I have fought for it? Was it a sleeper for the New Year? The files are too big. If anybody can resize them and put them here for posterity, I shall be grateful. ( If they are even worth showing here:-)) http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-EARL...p2047675.l2557

25th December 2012, 01:13 AM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Here you go Attached Images

25th December 2012, 01:15 AM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	It's been scrubbed with sandpaper which is a shame. The blade looks to me like it's a reused blade and the configuration of holes make me think it was once mounted as a large pata or possibly Firangi or similarly mounted blade with bars/mountings that are riveted to the blade. Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 25th December 2012 at 01:34 AM.

25th December 2012, 03:27 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In my dilettante opinion, the entire wide part of the blade below the gangja was formed from a separate piece and the original blade was inserted and forged there. If that was the case, I see no reason to see the holes in the original blade. No? Also, I do not see the bracket; rather, it is a fuller, and it stops suddenly ~ 1/5 of the way from the gangya. That's one of the reasons I suggest the existence of a separate thick piece where the blade was inserted. Last edited by ariel; 25th December 2012 at 03:38 PM.

25th December 2012, 03:38 PM	#11
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	ariel, i don't think it was an indian blade. i think at one point that particular kris has that fancy plate at the widest part of the blade, belonging in the category of this particular piece: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15535 kino's example on post#7 appears to have rivets (albeit his has 4 of them going down. yours might have just two ). the profile of the blade appears to be similar to mine in which it has a slight overall curve, and if you notice, a single groove on the lower edge. the handle on that is oriented the wrong way, btw... adding kino's example as well. Attached Images

25th December 2012, 02:30 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	First, thanks for your help with pics. Very clever idea re. origin of holes. But, if so, it must be rather old, isn't it? To switch from the european blade to pata ( 19th cen at the latest), and then to move to Mindanao.

25th December 2012, 05:23 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Lots of trade though in the region with India.......

25th December 2012, 02:35 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Very intersting piece, thank you for posting. Haven't seen it! Regards, Detlef

25th December 2012, 03:31 PM	#10
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I like it.. But maybe not a trade blade? The holes could have fillers (silver/gold etc) I just cant see how the wide area is created without seeing any forge lines or the blade becoming slimmer there due to flattening that area.

25th December 2012, 03:39 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am with Lotfi .

25th December 2012, 03:41 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And Spunger:-) Sorry, the answers started to pour in.

25th December 2012, 04:49 PM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	So, gentlemen, with all the pics, do you have an opinion on the age and value ( NOT MONETARY!) of this kris? Any thoughts on the origin of the blade? Rarity?

25th December 2012, 05:13 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	With some restore work, the plates need to added as well the baca baca and the handle seem not original anymore. When this would be done it will be a very nice kris and also rare IMHO. I think the blade is from Sulu. Age I would guess second half of the 19th century but there are members who will know it better. Detlef

25th December 2012, 08:15 PM	#17
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	With all the changes, what would be left of it?

25th December 2012, 08:32 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I think you were wise to avoid battle over this kris, Ariel . Fully restored (probably a lot of dollars later) you would have yourself something not quite authentic in others' eyes, I think . I would also estimate the age of this piece a bit earlier than late 19th .

25th December 2012, 10:32 PM	#22
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Frankly Detlef, i think you did a great job with your restoration. First of all, we all know that sheaths will often be changed in the lifetime of a blade. So if one can restore the old sheath like you did or even create a brand new one from scratch as Jose did in the link you provide i see no real problem with that. It is just respectful to the blade to provide it with a good home. My concern arises when we consider making physical changes to the blade such as with Ariel's example. Adding a new plate onto the blade requires a great deal of guess work and pretty much changes the blade forever.

25th December 2012, 11:46 PM	#24
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Detlef, i can, up to a point, see adding a baka-baka. but the problem with the plate is, we don't have a clue of its significance. is it merely for decoration, or does it have anything to do with something else? by adding a plain plate, what would be the significance of it? i was told at one time that having talismanic symbols is not by choice of the warrior. i thought about this and it make sense. as superstitious as these warriors were, you would think all blades will have some type of magical symbols. the plate might have some type of magical significance for all we know.

26th December 2012, 02:12 AM	#26
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Since my name has been mentioned several times, I would like to way in a little. It is always a difficult issue to restore a piece or not. Some recreation is involved, although what I do is based on research on the tribal art patterns, other tribal pieces, the time period of development, etc. I guess a bigger question is how much restoration? I figure that radical restoration that either involves replacing half the original work could be called reconstruction, or if it means swapping/cobbling pieces together then it could be called a monstrosity. I would not apply this to newly made pieces. This particular piece in question seems to be on the borderline, especially since this involves the soul of the piece - the blade. It would require more than just replacing lost inlay.