Is There a Specific Term For This Style Of Moroccan Dagger???

[CharlesS]

This is an interesting a rarer form of dagger from Morocco, but I have never heard a term for it, or this style in particular. I am familar, of course, with the koummya and genoui but this dagger does not fit perfectly into either of those categories, though closer to a genoui.

The dagger is robust at 17.5in. and a 10in. blade that appears to be from a cut down sword or bayonet. The hilt is a beefy piece of rhino horn, and all the silver hallmarked, though not particularly impressive in detail.

Any info on this type would be greatly appreciated.

***As an interesting side note, I have spoken with several native Moroccans locally, and while they are very familar with the koummya dagger style, interestingly, none of them had ever heard the term "koummya". Each of them called what we would generally call a koummya by a more Persian name, "khanjar". Just thought that was interesting.

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Charles,

I generally call this type a Genoui, but am not 100% positive that this is its original name.

As for terminology currently used by collectors, I will argue that the majority of names are not used by their original native owners.

[ariel]

Could it be just a rich version of Khodmi?

[CharlesS]

Good point Ariel. I hadn't thought about that.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

As for terminology currently used by collectors, I will argue that the majority of names are not used by their original native owners.

You might be right, but what's the alternative? There is very little ( or not at all) tradition of academic scholarship in the so-called " native" societies.


Had it not been for Stocklein, the swords of Topkapi would not have been decribed till 2001 ( Yucel's book). Pant's book on Indian weapons repeats assertions from Eggerton, Stone and Rawson. The Iranians waited for an expatriate Mr. Khorasani to publish a book on their traditional weapons. According to Khorasani, the very first attempt to catalogue Persian swords from Persian (!) museums was made by the Soviet art historian Romanovsky in the 1950's, and the best book on the subject was issued from Poland.
It took an Israeli (!) Daniel Ayalon to start academic studies of the Egyptian mamelukes, and African weapons would not have been academically known without Spring and some other European authors. Encyclopedia of Indonesian weapons? Van Zonneveld. Arabian weapons? Elgood and Jacob. The best book on Turkish weapons? Astvatsaturyan from Russia. Tibet? La Rocca. Ancient Central Asia? Gorelik from Russia. Best museum exhibition catalogues ? All from Europe. South Asian? Macao exhibition book with marvelous articles by some of the Forumites ( plus Japanese, Korean and Chinese chapters on their own weapons). Had it not been for the efforts of the European collectors like Moser, Eggerton and Stone we would not have known not only the correct name for a Salawar Yataghan, but even what it looks like.

Perhaps only the Japanese have demonstrated comparably-serious academic tradition of study of their own weapons.

I would be delighted to read books on Afghani, Sudanese, North African, Thai, Vietnamese, Ethiopian or a multitude of other weapons written by native authors and teaching us the inside view of their arms and armour. But meanwhile, the only sources of information come from the European researchers.

Thus, the wrong names.

Please feel free to write and publish an academic book on traditional Omani weaponry with all the correct names, and I shall be the first one to buy it and to rely on the original, "native", information.

With best wishes.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by ariel

You might be right, but what's the alternative? There is very little ( or not at all) tradition of academic scholarship in the so-called " native" societies.


Had it not been for Stocklein, the swords of Topkapi would not have been decribed till 2001 ( Yucel's book). Pant's book on Indian weapons repeats assertions from Eggerton, Stone and Rawson. The Iranians waited for an expatriate Mr. Khorasani to publish a book on their traditional weapons. According to Khorasani, the very first attempt to catalogue Persian swords from Persian (!) museums was made by the Soviet art historian Romanovsky in the 1950's, and the best book on the subject was issued from Poland.
It took an Israeli (!) Daniel Ayalon to start academic studies of the Egyptian mamelukes, and African weapons would not have been academically known without Spring and some other European authors. Encyclopedia of Indonesian weapons? Van Zonneveld. Arabian weapons? Elgood and Jacob. The best book on Turkish weapons? Astvatsaturyan from Russia. Tibet? La Rocca. Ancient Central Asia? Gorelik from Russia. Best museum exhibition catalogues ? All from Europe. South Asian? Macao exhibition book with marvelous articles by some of the Forumites ( plus Japanese, Korean and Chinese chapters on their own weapons). Had it not been for the efforts of the European collectors like Moser, Eggerton and Stone we would not have known not only the correct name for a Salawar Yataghan, but even what it looks like.

Perhaps only the Japanese have demonstrated comparably-serious academic tradition of study of their own weapons.

I would be delighted to read books on Afghani, Sudanese, North African, Thai, Vietnamese, Ethiopian or a multitude of other weapons written by native authors and teaching us the inside view of their arms and armour. But meanwhile, the only sources of information come from the European researchers.

Thus, the wrong names.

Please feel free to write and publish an academic book on traditional Omani weaponry with all the correct names, and I shall be the first one to buy it and to rely on the original, "native", information.

With best wishes.

I think for us collectors, trying to change the wrong names is counterproductive. I merely commented on why the natives do not know on the names we use to describe certain items

Though I will keep pointing it out if presented wrongly, for example, the name nimcha was presented wrongly by LP, he did correct it though (at first, it was presented as arabic, when in fact its persian. Thats a wrong info that needed to be corrected) So to me, as someone who knows arabic, I find it to be a positive thing to point out when non-arabic words are described as arabic, or when a certain name is flagged as "native" when in fact its not. This doesnt mean I have no respect for the effort of non-native researchers but a wrong info is just that, a wrong info. And when it exists in an academic paper, one needs to point out where are the wrong information. Even with something as irrelevant as weapon names :-)

PS: I have a project set to make an arabic site dealing with the arms and armour of the Islamic world. In it I will try to get information from native museums, elderly people, muslim collectors and ofcourse, non-native experts (many of them here)

Also, in a telephone discussion with Saqir alAnizi, we discussed how much info we had here was lost due to the art being transmitted orally rather then academically.

Question to you, Ariel, I would like 1 LOGICAL reason why a speaker of arabic should not point out a misconception about a certain word? The question is valid ofcourse, if we both look at this academically (or just simply wanting to know the truth behind the simplest things)

[ariel]

My comment was not a prescription for the future, but an attempt to explain the present state of knowledge in the area: all our info comes from the "external" sources and, as such, might be fraught with errors committed by the outsiders not fully aware of the local nuances.


Things, however, might not be that simple...For example, in my recent post on Afghani pulowars, AJ1356 mentioned that the local call them just Shamshirs. Well, that may be the correct name and early Europeans might have been fooled. On the other hand, they might have preserved the early name ( Pulowar) and the current one ( Shamshir) is just a generic simplification by the locals not exposed to these weapons for more than a century.


By all means, correct the errors and supply the original information!
As to the idea of developing a site, being an old-fashioned " reader", I would like your effort to culminate in a published book. Something to hold, leaf through, underline, curl in bed with :-)
Seriously, write a book! As I said before, sign me up for an early order :-)

[A.alnakkas]

"Things, however, might not be that simple...For example, in my recent post on Afghani pulowars, AJ1356 mentioned that the local call them just Shamshirs. Well, that may be the correct name and early Europeans might have been fooled. On the other hand, they might have preserved the early name ( Pulowar) and the current one ( Shamshir) is just a generic simplification by the locals not exposed to these weapons for more than a century."

That is a possible outcome. Personally I do not know the language there, but when it comes to arabic, I use deduction and research (Yes, I actually do research the terms such as nimcha or koummya etc) but an afghan or someone fimiliar with the language there can be the key to the answer. Does the word Pulwar makes sense to an afghani? is it derived from a mispelled/combination of certain words in afghanistan? Do the old people understand it? keep in mind, that the old people in the middle east may have lived in the time when swords were still in use.

Perhaps AJ can help out here.

Now to my view on external sources; I personally think that those who have worked on this field have done a phenomenal job in perserving a part of a culture which they have nothing to do with. Yes, the work is not flawless, but I think its flaws can be reduced alot by enthusiatic natives such as myself (or I am just a hopeful person :-P)

"By all means, correct the errors and supply the original information!
As to the idea of developing a site, being an old-fashioned " reader", I would like your effort to culminate in a published book. Something to hold, leaf through, underline, curl in bed with :-)
Seriously, write a book! As I said before, sign me up for an early order :-)"

It would be extremely arrogant of me to write a book. I am still a student, but my ability with the arabic language is enough to tell the difference between a foreign word and a native word. The foreign word could be used by arabs btw, but asking such questions (my case with the word Nimcha) can even add an insight to the history of the weapon.

[Gavin Nugent]

It is an interesting game trying to specifically name such a vast and long standing cultural cross pollination of influences over the centuries on so many weapons in so many countries. Very few weapons remained isolated, uninfluenced and carry their original name.

I cast my imagination back in to the days prior to the frequent use of firearms and think to myself did the knights and soldiers of the era care for such terms and at what point, if any, did they, if at all, become so finicky about what their weapon of choice was categorised as...I feel little care would be had to such fancy and as long as it was sharp and ready when needed.

It is more interesting to write about the aspects of the pieces in hand and look objectively at the influences within the pieces rather seek a catch phrase. Call it a dagger
One of my personal favorite references uses very simple terms, look at the headings used in Arts of the Muslim Knight.

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

What an interesting topic. I'm glad there has been recent attention to the disparity in terminology with many of the ethnographic weapons most collect and some study. There may be a few here who recall my 'kaskara' conundrum with posts from about ten years ago, which brought almost no discussion and even less from a number of authors mentioned, nor academics involved in museum capacities. Briggs used the term 'kaskara' and Reed later used in in his article on 'Darfur kaskaras' but also specified the term 'saif Kasallawi' for them. Last year we were fortunate to have Ed join us, and his outstanding work on Kasalla (written contemporary to Reed) revealed the reasons behind the 'Kasallawi' designation.
I was actually quite surprised by the disinterest in most scholars and authors I queried on the term 'kaskara' and its origins, it was simply 'the term used for these swords, with no questions asked. In talking with individuals from Sudan, Darfur and Eritrea ( I used to work with many ethnic groups) not a single one had ever heard the term..only sa'if was used, however one man from Sudan noted they were sometimes called 'cross'. Recent research has revealed some further data which has more fortunately.

The term nim'cha and its misuse has been brought up repeatedly in its reference to the Moroccan sa'if, and the term itself is, as noted, discussed somewhat in Elgood ("Arms and Armour of Arabia"). I was glad that Louis-Pierre (LPCA) joined us on the other thread thouroughly examining the use, and misuse as well as likely etymology of the term. Through the years he has shared considerable research he has done on these weapons, including the 'flyssa', another curious sword whose origins remain obscure and the term a French application from 19th century tranliteration if I recall.

On another concurrent thread, in another twist to the nimcha conundrum I brought up the obvious collectors term 'Zanzibar' nimcha, a compounded misnomer, also largely met with resounding thud. The only 'author' I have seen using this term has been Tirri, whose book is an outstanding handbook for collectors, thus the term serves well.

There are so many terms used by collectors which derive from the venerable works of the profoundly respected works of the earlier writers of the 19th into the 20th century that indeed it is counterproductive to try to reassert or correct proper terms. It must be remembered that in many, if not most cases, the populus at large in most cultural spheres does not know colloquial terms for certain weapons, though there are likely many instances where in familiar circumstances they may have been called by nicknames or the like.
For example, in todays military the heavy machine gun carried rather selectively by certain soldiers in a group is nicknamed 'the saw', while it is of course recognized as a machine gun, but with specific official designation.

The importance of finding the origins and proper use of terms used for these ethnographic weapons, whether in regional or former parlance, cannot be underestimated. For those researching and trying to discover the development chronologically of a particular weapon, it is key when investigating earlier contemporary narratives and accounts to know these things so that descriptions can be evaluated accordingly. One of the earliest accounts known of the 'kampilan' in the Philippines is described in the the 16th century death of Magellan. However, does this refer to the sword we know in todays collections, or another form?

It is important to have a working glossary where the weapons we discuss have a common parlance, but it remains an important element of research to make known these important addendums to these terms used. It is also important to make every effort to avoid 'pidgeonholing' in describing the many hybrids and variations which as we know exist profoundly with the weapons endemic to most cultures. In these cases I think that descriptions should be carefully qualified beyond the more generic terms to characterize the specifics also considered.

[NovelsRus]

Originally Posted by ariel

Could it be just a rich version of Khodmi?

Interesting points, all, and a beautiful dagger whatever its name may be.

On a related note, I've an odd koummya or possibly Persian Khanjar I'd like your opinions on. First, I was told it was indeed a koummya. When I pointed out that the pommel is all brass, no wood or rhino horn, the seller then said it was a Persian variant of the koummya, or, for lack of a better word, a Khanjar.
What does the board say? Pics below:

The metal appears to be brass (under all the grime), and the red setting stones and border is coral, allegedly. The grime I've cleaned, but the name....? I still don't know what this is. Any clues?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Is There a Specific Term For This Style Of Moroccan Dagger???

I think "lovely" is the specific term that leaped into my head.

spiral

[Rick]

The blade ???

[VANDOO]

ONE POSSIBLE GOOD SOURCE OF INFORMATION OFTEN OVERLOOKED BY A FORIGN PERSON DOING RESEARCH BY ASKING QUESTIONS, WOULD BE ANY OLD WRITINGS OR RECORDS. THE FORGE MAY HAVE KEPT SOME RECORDS AND DESCRIPTIONS AND IF THE CORRESPONDING RECORDS OF THE SALE SAY TO A CURRENT RULER COULD BE FOUND PERHAPS AN EXAMPLE FROM THE ARSNEL COULD BE FOUND AND LINKLED TO THE NAME USED WHEN PLACEING OR FILLING THE ORDER IN A SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD.
IT WILL TAKE A LOT OF WORK AND THE RECORDS MAY NO LONGER BE AVAILABLE OR DESTROYED BUT THEY WOULD HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF EXISTING THAN THE PEOPLE FROM OVER 100 YEARS AGO. ONE WHO READS AND SPEAKS THE NATIVE LANGUAGE WOULD HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF HUNTING DOWN AND READING SUCH RECORDS.
AS JIM POINTED OUT THE WARRIOR USING THE SWORD MIGHT HAVE A DIFFERENT NAME FOR IT THAN THE ONE WHO MADE IT. I HAVE A SWORD BY MY BED NAMED RALPH FOR INSTANCE.

[David R]

Re the names of weapons, the earliest collections were for the most part put together as "trophies of arms"by old warriors and soldiers returned from wars and colonial ventures. The names they gave to weapons would be what they used, sometimes in their own language, sometimes mangled versions of the peoples they got the weapons from. And possibly sometimes the term used by soldiers for the gear used by the enemy. Eg, burp gun, sam johnson?, balalaika, tommy gun, flaming onion etc. In the case of "kaskara" the name was possibly bestowed by the humble Tommy Atkins in the field....[( 'cos when they came for you with one of them, your "bowels loosened".) not to be taken too seriously, please. Kaskara oil in 19thC Britain was a well known remedy for constipation]

[NovelsRus]

Thanks, Rick. Sorry I forgot this. Looks like a run of the mill tourist-grade steel. Sharpened up nicely, though.
Thx!

[Rick]

Thanks Novels .
I think I'm looking at a Koummya form of blade .
I would be more inclined to describe this dagger by its blade form .

[KuKulzA28]

Naming?

Most folk don't know all the names for everything anyways..

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It must be remembered that in many, if not most cases, the populus at large in most cultural spheres does not know colloquial terms for certain weapons, though there are likely many instances where in familiar circumstances they may have been called by nicknames or the like.

That is very true. And some cultures have had much less interest in cataloging their own weaponry. In fact, it seems the Europeans and Japanese have been much more studious with that. Also, terminology varies as does language.

So in Chinese, a dao is a single edged blade. Depending on your adjective or context is can be a kitchen knife, a scalpel, a saber, a chopper, or even a polearm! But instead of systematic cataloging, they are named based on traits or a family or whatever. Often names come from natural things... Goose quill, willow leaf, ox-tail saber, meteor hammer, etc.... or a trait/purpose like 3 section staff or zhan-ma-dao (killing/slashing horse saber), or a warrior such as the yan-yue-dao being called a guan-dao. There were Imperial regulations sure.... but non-military dao will obviously fall outside of official regulating. Thus since the weapons aren't standardized or all created in a factory, nor held in high esteem and used often by the scholarly circles generally - it won't receive that scholarly attention and systematic classification. Also, what is dao in Mandarin is do in Cantonese and Taiwanese... hence baat jam do <-- ba zhan dao in mandarin.

A Japanese-inspired Chinese long two-handed saber is called a wo-dao (wo in refernece to the wokou pirates who were often Japanese). But are katanas wo-dao? And are katana blades that were exported to China and fitted with CHinese style fittings wo-dao or katana? Are British sword blades in takoubas, firangis, and piso Podangs really just "Pattern # whatever Sabers" with local hilts?!?!?!

For the Atayal Taiwanese they call their headhunting knives laraw, boojing or bucing depending on the dialect. A laraw topuw (radish) or a laraw behuw (bar) which explains the shape (radish) or the length (bar). Boojing and bucing come from the root word meaning to hammer... which perhaps is a way to explain chopping. To make another similar point, different shapes resemble different things, so in Taiwanese different handle bars on bicycles are called different things such as "goat head" or "cockroach antennae". You can only imagine this will apply to other terminology too.

Also to make matters "worse", some regions call something by a name and others call it something else. I asked one Nepali friend what to call the blade he said kukuri, and then when I asked them was a Kora, Khunda, or Khuda was he didn't recognize any of those terms, to him, they are all kukuri. Another Nepali guy said (kukris) are siruapti.

What is in Luzon a talibong is often called a pinute in Cebu. And the talibongs from Samar don't look like the talibongs from Luzon and the northern islands. Dinahong playas vary depending on who you ask. Are sundangs local swords or are they a style of kris? Kris are kalis depending who you ask.

What I thought was a Klewang (according to a Malaysian and a Sumatran guy) is a Pedang to a Javanese guy and a Gobang to a Sundanese... and actually a Malaysian guy told me it's not a klewang it's a pedang! What the hell! hahahaha

Perhaps it's really just Westerners obsession with classifying EVERYTHING into its neat little category. People need to be different races (and then race, culture, and ethnicity cause problems in classification), crops are systematically split into different strains and types, the cladograms of animal taxonomy constantly revised, and weapons always being classified and attempted to be named according to local terms or the European's impression of it. There's nothing wrong with that, just different.

And the quest to call it what locals call it is a bit odd sometimes too. For example the Gobi desert is just weird... since Gobi means desert. Westerners get all messed up sometimes when they find out something is simply called what it is. A desert is a desert, a sword is a sword, etc. Hehe, but obviously there's exceptions all over the place and it's not fair to over-generalize.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

For example, in todays military the heavy machine gun carried rather selectively by certain soldiers in a group is nicknamed 'the saw', while it is of course recognized as a machine gun, but with specific official designation.

The SAW means Squad Automatic Weapon. It's sometimes a nickname sure, but its derived from the official name of the role the machine gun plays. It has a few nicknames I think that soldiers endearing call it, but it is an M249 SAW. Like I said, the Western World likes to systematically classify everything (I'm generalizing here) and this has rubbed off not only on how students of weaponry in the West see things, but also how militaries operate today. It's the modern way I guess.