Introductory post: I know nothing, pleas help!

cutting_edge · 18th February 2014, 07:20 PM

Hello dear all,
first, allow me to briefly introduce myself.
My name is Alexandra and I discovered your forum while looking for information on some African (I presume) items I found a couple of weeks ago in a so-called Gebrauchtwarenhof, that is, a second-hand-shop on a charity basis, in Germany.

I must blandly state that I know nothing whatsoever about weaponry, ethnographic or otherwise, but I admire the craft that goes into these objects like I do with every craft and art. I love beautiful things, what ever they may be.

My field of collection is mainly glass and pottery, mid 20th century, Art Deco, Art Nouveau, I entertain a website also, whoever feels they would like to look at it can pm me, (I suppose?? not quite absorbed the forum rules yet.)

Anyway, I appreciate any kind of information on the objects I am posting as photographs. I am bracing myself to hear that they are tourist ware, as I could not tell :-), but of course I hope not. Country of origin, any more detailed identification as to maybe which region, as well as their age are the first pieces of information I am looking for.

Let me say that I am already impressed with this forum and the wealth of information it supplies and thank you in advance!

Kind regards,
Alexandra

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2014, 02:08 PM

These are recent souvenirs from Kenya. The bottom part of the spear is missing.

trenchwarfare · 19th February 2014, 04:37 PM

Welcome aboard, Alexandra. I don't frequent here, but drop in from time to time. Your items are as stated, but interesting none the less. Be warned, ethnographic weaponry, can be very addictive. I too dabble in some pottery. Mostly one-of-a-kind drip glaze designs.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2014, 05:03 PM

Hi Alexandra,
I would like to welcome you as well, and thank you for your courteous and wonderfully explained query and photos. As Tim has noted these are indeed from Kenya and recall the spears and swords of the Maasai warriors and artwork on their shields.
While these and many items are of course modern made souvenier items, they are often produced by native artisans following traditions and heritage extending long into their tribal histories. In most cases with ethnographic weapon forms, many of them are essentially 'current history' as in many cultures the weapons still are worn as elements of costume or accessory in accord with these traditions.

In many cases those of us here who are investigating and classifying various examples of these kinds of weapons will find clues and important data with contemporary material culture items. It is important for us to learn more on the traditions, religion, superstitions, and all aspects of these cultures in order to better understand the weapons and those who used them.

Please remember that an item of weaponry need not necessarily be 'old' to be important ethnographically.
Thank you again for joining us here.

Very best regards,
Jim

VANDOO · 19th February 2014, 10:08 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=initiation

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

THE SHIELD YOU HAVE MAY BE ONE MADE FOR USE TODAY IN THE INITIATION CEREMONIES FOR YOUNG MASAI WHEN THEY OFFICIALLY BECOME MEN AND WARRIORS. IT COULD ALSO BE A TOURIST ITEM THOUGH THOSE ARE USUALLY SMALL AND MADE OF THE HIDE OF SOMETHING OTHER THAN CATTLE.
ABOVE IS A OLD POST WITH SOME INFORMATION, MORE SEARCHES FOR MASAI WILL BRING UP MORE INFORMATION.
THE METAL BACK SPIKE IS MISSING FROM YOUR SPEAR WHICH IS A MODERN FORM OF THE OLD LION SPEAR. LION SPEARS ARE NOT USED TODAY EXCEPT FOR CEREMONIE AND SUCH. THE MASAI NO LONGER REQUIRE THE SPEARING OF A LION TO BECOME A WARRIOR THESE DAYS. SEE SOME OF THE OLD PICTURES OF THE EXTRA LONG LION SPEAR POINTS AND THE HEADPIECE MADE FROM THE MANE OF THE LION A WARRIOR KILLED.

napoleon · 20th February 2014, 11:29 PM

dont know a lot myself ,but this is the campus,the collective knowledge of the membership is beyond compare,welcome aboard

cutting_edge · 28th February 2014, 09:35 AM

Dear all,

my apologies it took me so long to come back to you!

Thank you very much indeed for your gracious welcome and all of your expertise, I appreciate your input very much! What i have learned from you from this item only is enough to get me hooked :-)
So in future I know what else to look for when I go hunting on the fleamarkets and hope to be able to contribute more regularly and learn!

Kind regards,
Alexandra

cutting_edge · 28th February 2014, 09:46 AM

Hello Vandoo,
I looked up the thread, thank you.
Indeed, the shield is positively minute compared to the ones that could and would have been used, and it lacks weight and also the edges are not finished, but only roughly cut.
So are you saying that ceremonial and ritual weaponry can often be smaller and less elaborate?
Best regards,
Alexandra

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=initiation

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

THE SHIELD YOU HAVE MAY BE ONE MADE FOR USE TODAY IN THE INITIATION CEREMONIES FOR YOUNG MASAI WHEN THEY OFFICIALLY BECOME MEN AND WARRIORS. IT COULD ALSO BE A TOURIST ITEM THOUGH THOSE ARE USUALLY SMALL AND MADE OF THE HIDE OF SOMETHING OTHER THAN CATTLE.
ABOVE IS A OLD POST WITH SOME INFORMATION, MORE SEARCHES FOR MASAI WILL BRING UP MORE INFORMATION.
THE METAL BACK SPIKE IS MISSING FROM YOUR SPEAR WHICH IS A MODERN FORM OF THE OLD LION SPEAR. LION SPEARS ARE NOT USED TODAY EXCEPT FOR CEREMONIE AND SUCH. THE MASAI NO LONGER REQUIRE THE SPEARING OF A LION TO BECOME A WARRIOR THESE DAYS. SEE SOME OF THE OLD PICTURES OF THE EXTRA LONG LION SPEAR POINTS AND THE HEADPIECE MADE FROM THE MANE OF THE LION A WARRIOR KILLED.

VANDOO · 3rd March 2014, 04:05 AM

THE INITIAION SHIELDS ARE NOT WELL MADE BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY USED FOR A SHORT TIME AND DON'T NEED TO OFFER MUCH PROTECTION. THEY ARE GENERALLY FLAT AND SOMEWHAT MIS -SHAPED, THE ONE I HAVE IS 32 INCHES LONG X 22 INCHES WIDE AND FLAT AND NOT VERY WELL PAINTED.
THE TOURIST ONES OFTEN ARE MORE DECORATED AND QUITE A LOT SMALLER MY TWO EXAMPLES ARE 18IN. X 12 IN AND 17 IN. X 9.5 IN.
THE OLD MASAI LION SHIELDS WERE A LOT LARGER AND SHAPED ALMOST LIKE A BOAT WITH WITH A BIT OF DEPTH TO PROTECT THE WARRIOR FROM THE LION. OLD LION SHIELDS WERE VERY WELL SHAPED AND VERY STRONG AND WELL PAINTED.

18th February 2014, 07:20 PM	#1
cutting_edge Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3	Introductory post: I know nothing, pleas help! Hello dear all, first, allow me to briefly introduce myself. My name is Alexandra and I discovered your forum while looking for information on some African (I presume) items I found a couple of weeks ago in a so-called Gebrauchtwarenhof, that is, a second-hand-shop on a charity basis, in Germany. I must blandly state that I know nothing whatsoever about weaponry, ethnographic or otherwise, but I admire the craft that goes into these objects like I do with every craft and art. I love beautiful things, what ever they may be. My field of collection is mainly glass and pottery, mid 20th century, Art Deco, Art Nouveau, I entertain a website also, whoever feels they would like to look at it can pm me, (I suppose?? not quite absorbed the forum rules yet.) Anyway, I appreciate any kind of information on the objects I am posting as photographs. I am bracing myself to hear that they are tourist ware, as I could not tell :-), but of course I hope not. Country of origin, any more detailed identification as to maybe which region, as well as their age are the first pieces of information I am looking for. Let me say that I am already impressed with this forum and the wealth of information it supplies and thank you in advance! Kind regards, Alexandra Attached Images

28th February 2014, 09:35 AM	#7
cutting_edge Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 3	Thank you all! Dear all, my apologies it took me so long to come back to you! Thank you very much indeed for your gracious welcome and all of your expertise, I appreciate your input very much! What i have learned from you from this item only is enough to get me hooked :-) So in future I know what else to look for when I go hunting on the fleamarkets and hope to be able to contribute more regularly and learn! Kind regards, Alexandra

19th February 2014, 02:08 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	These are recent souvenirs from Kenya. The bottom part of the spear is missing.

19th February 2014, 04:37 PM	#3
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Welcome aboard, Alexandra. I don't frequent here, but drop in from time to time. Your items are as stated, but interesting none the less. Be warned, ethnographic weaponry, can be very addictive. I too dabble in some pottery. Mostly one-of-a-kind drip glaze designs.

19th February 2014, 05:03 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Alexandra, I would like to welcome you as well, and thank you for your courteous and wonderfully explained query and photos. As Tim has noted these are indeed from Kenya and recall the spears and swords of the Maasai warriors and artwork on their shields. While these and many items are of course modern made souvenier items, they are often produced by native artisans following traditions and heritage extending long into their tribal histories. In most cases with ethnographic weapon forms, many of them are essentially 'current history' as in many cultures the weapons still are worn as elements of costume or accessory in accord with these traditions. In many cases those of us here who are investigating and classifying various examples of these kinds of weapons will find clues and important data with contemporary material culture items. It is important for us to learn more on the traditions, religion, superstitions, and all aspects of these cultures in order to better understand the weapons and those who used them. Please remember that an item of weaponry need not necessarily be 'old' to be important ethnographically. Thank you again for joining us here. Very best regards, Jim

19th February 2014, 10:08 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=initiation WELCOME TO THE FORUM THE SHIELD YOU HAVE MAY BE ONE MADE FOR USE TODAY IN THE INITIATION CEREMONIES FOR YOUNG MASAI WHEN THEY OFFICIALLY BECOME MEN AND WARRIORS. IT COULD ALSO BE A TOURIST ITEM THOUGH THOSE ARE USUALLY SMALL AND MADE OF THE HIDE OF SOMETHING OTHER THAN CATTLE. ABOVE IS A OLD POST WITH SOME INFORMATION, MORE SEARCHES FOR MASAI WILL BRING UP MORE INFORMATION. THE METAL BACK SPIKE IS MISSING FROM YOUR SPEAR WHICH IS A MODERN FORM OF THE OLD LION SPEAR. LION SPEARS ARE NOT USED TODAY EXCEPT FOR CEREMONIE AND SUCH. THE MASAI NO LONGER REQUIRE THE SPEARING OF A LION TO BECOME A WARRIOR THESE DAYS. SEE SOME OF THE OLD PICTURES OF THE EXTRA LONG LION SPEAR POINTS AND THE HEADPIECE MADE FROM THE MANE OF THE LION A WARRIOR KILLED.

20th February 2014, 11:29 PM	#6
napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 88	dont know a lot myself ,but this is the campus,the collective knowledge of the membership is beyond compare,welcome aboard

3rd March 2014, 04:05 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE INITIAION SHIELDS ARE NOT WELL MADE BECAUSE THEY ARE ONLY USED FOR A SHORT TIME AND DON'T NEED TO OFFER MUCH PROTECTION. THEY ARE GENERALLY FLAT AND SOMEWHAT MIS -SHAPED, THE ONE I HAVE IS 32 INCHES LONG X 22 INCHES WIDE AND FLAT AND NOT VERY WELL PAINTED. THE TOURIST ONES OFTEN ARE MORE DECORATED AND QUITE A LOT SMALLER MY TWO EXAMPLES ARE 18IN. X 12 IN AND 17 IN. X 9.5 IN. THE OLD MASAI LION SHIELDS WERE A LOT LARGER AND SHAPED ALMOST LIKE A BOAT WITH WITH A BIT OF DEPTH TO PROTECT THE WARRIOR FROM THE LION. OLD LION SHIELDS WERE VERY WELL SHAPED AND VERY STRONG AND WELL PAINTED.