Some "pre-1898" Military Kurkis

[derek]

Hi guys,

I thought I would post these for the kukri fans. These are what AC calls "longleaf".

The letter that came with them says they are dated by the Royal Nepalese Army as pre-1898. Who knows? Sounds good to me. The total length is about 19 inches for all of them, even though some of the pics makes one look longer than the other.

The weight on all of them is between 1lb 7oz -- 1lb 11oz. The POB is right about 5 inches.

Some of us kukri collectors have been trying to make sense of the inscriptions on the spines. So far one has been translated as "Goddess Company". Possibly a nickname for the company this kuk was assigned to?

Does anyone else have an old military kukri with an inscription on the spine? I don't know if anyone has bothered to catalog them with translations, but it would be interesting to see.





another pair

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Derek,
Very nice example, especially with inscription!
The kukri is another of the very specialized ethnographic weapons that has interesting development and history that has carried a great deal of speculation and debate. What is the latest consensus on the origin of the kukri in its traditional form and what might be the earliest example known?
Also, what might be the most probable explanation for the distinctive notch at the choil?
I think it would be interesting to hear some discussion on these, as I know that I for one, would like to learn more on these.
Sure miss John Powell's contributions on the kukri and kora. He seems to have gone underground!
All the best,
Jim

[Andrew]

Very cool, Derek. Thanks for sharing these with us here (good to see you as well. ).


Jim, I suspect most of the kukri guys have been hanging out with Derek, JP, Spiral (and others) here: www.ikrhs.com

Great site, but we do miss you guys.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thanks Andrew -

Jens

[Andrew]

My pleasure, Jens. I lurk there.

[derek]

Thanks, Andrew.
I've missed both forums! I was nearly as quiet on IKRHS last year.

JP has been VERY quiet lately.....?

Jim,
We have talked a lot about the cho and the different forms that turn up. Some call the three-pointed example a "temple" cho because it looks a bit like a temple roof. One of the three kukris I posted has a subtle one like this.
I don't know that anyone has really made a compelling argument for what the cho is for. Really old blades didn't have this feature though, so it's something that developed over time.

Some people say the style itself came from the Egyptian kopish, Greek kopis, and Falcatta. You can see why. I think it's generally agreed that it came to Nepal from India.

I made a few calls to Atlanta Cutlery to see if anyone there had any inside information about the huge purchase they made a few years ago. So far, no luck. However, they have agreed to let me go there and photograph as many samples as I can, especially of the inscriptions. If there is repetition or a pattern to be found, that would be a good way to find it. however, I'm about 4 hours from them and I only go through Atlanta a few times a year to see family. If anyone in ATL (hint, Bill Marsh!) feels like paying them a visit, that would be great.

Spiral is a great resource on IKRHS. If he cares to chime in, he can probably add some insight.

-d

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

What is the latest consensus on the origin of the kukri in its traditional form and what might be the earliest example known?
Also, what might be the most probable explanation for the distinctive notch at the choil?
I think it would be interesting to hear some discussion on these, as I know that I for one, would like to learn more on these.

Jim

Thanks Derek. Ill try .

Jim re the kaudi, {notch.}

According to the sources Simon & I interveiwed at some length over many days in Nepal, 2 years ago.

They included a well educated master kami called Nawaraj from Dharan who was fortuanate enough to have been educated alongside the Gurkhas children on a British Army base where his father was a kami, & a well known kukri dealer from Kathmando , Ram Kumar, & Various other people confirmed what was said by them for us. Ravi the descendent of a long line of Gurkhas & Gorkhas back to at least the Indian mutiney confirmed the religious & spiritual connotations & pointed out the actual temple roofs thier shapes matched.

Also Various Bhramins from the family of an Air hostess I met in Nepal, have been kind enough to add thier input to the interpritation factors of the designs involved & explained that in thier eyes, all Hindu weapons have religious symbols to conteract the possibly maleficent spirits that can be attracted to weapons that have been involved in violence & bloodshed, Such symbols as Buddhas eye on Ram Dao & the Lotus on kora are other examples.


That said on a practical level The cho {which is usualy called the kaudi in Nepal} they say practicaly speaking it is a device to drip blood to reduce the amount of it that gets on to the handle. It also clearly provides an area that allows the ending of the blade bevel without a raised ricaso.
.

Interestingly they & most of the other Nepali sources we spoke to say most of the original designs are religious symbols usualy based on the shape of various temple roofs.

Shivas Lingham, from the god of victory, is the commonest although they say it is also doubles as the cows hoof. also a sacred symbol. {Which in Nepali eyes is doubly good if it can be both things.} as both Nawaraj & Ram explained to us that when a particular kaudi looked like a particular symbol to one person that they percieved as something else that was doubly auspicios as it could have both meanings, so although the kaudi was made with a particular meaning or shape by the kami, interpritation & meaning is in the eye of the beholder as well.

Buddhas temple, peacocks {Of which on is both the symbol of Nepal & also connected to both Buddha & some Hindu gods of war, longevity etc.. } & apparently even christs cross can be also represented.


I am sure some kaudi have different meanings from this but my research, leads me to belive they are all protective religious symbols, the sun god, crescent moon symbols & the sexual organs of the gods as examples. Whether particular symbols were prefered by individual, kami, or particular workshops or {often called armourys or arsenals.} we could find no definate proof but to me it does seem quite possible to my thinking.

Intrestingly The small stars or circles often found on the majority of commercal post 1960 kukri at the end of the small spines fullers or grooves also represent Lord Buddhas eyes one of the familar all seeing god symbols one sees all over Nepal. {& indeed on Ram Dao.}

Hope thats of some help or intrest. Personaly I think all the old Nepali kukri had the notch, some collecters disagree, but I think there examples are actualy worked on re worked blades.


Heres examples of Peacock, Shivas lingham {cows hoof.} & Buddhas roof, kaudi. The bottom one {mk.1 pattern.} also looks like its probably a temple roof, perhaps one near Calcutta, or Queeta ? {pure idle speculation on my part.} as this Mk.1 carrys, FW fort william marks & those of Queeta armoury as well. amongst many others.{last 3,company battalion,dates etc.} But then theres a lot of miles between Calcutta & Queeta.



As for the oldest kuri I woud say The earliest known kukri to date, belonged to Raja Drabya Shah, dated between 1559 & 1570 in the 16th century.
Heres a few of his pieces from Nepal National museam. The picture is poor, but the design of the kukri seems already fully evolved so I believe they were already common & had been for a long time at this point.



I would also like point out that although the Atlanta "longleaves" were quite likely to be made pre.1898 the inscriptions generaly start Shree 3 Chandra as an honorific to Prime minster Chandra who ruled from c.1902 to 1928. so clearly were in service at some point in that time frame. {I surmise they were marked when he came to power, but have no evidence.}

As for the true origin of the kukri? currently lost in the mists of time I would say.

Spiral

[Andrew]

Great info, Spiral. Many thanks!

[Jim McDougall]

Beautifully detailed and explained Spiral!!! Thank you so much!!!
I really appreciate your insight into these fascinating weapons and especially your photos that illustrate the varying 'cho's. I had often heard the explanation regarding symbolism of the sexual organ of Kali, however had not heard of the temple roof association. It would seem that in the subcontinent, especially on Hindu weapons, that architectural symbolism has often been employed, and this appears to carry forth that concept. It is thought as well that the tulwar hilt carrys certain association in the decorative structure that represent the stupa.
Thank you again, and its really good to hear from you!

Thanks again Derek, for showing these and for sharing your information and perspective. A few years ago talking with JP I recall him telling me about some hoard of Nepalese weapons being acquired by some concern here in the US, but did not recall that it was ATL cutlery. Sounds like a mouth-watering situation though from the volume of weapons he noted!
I agree , I hope Bill will chime in on this.

Andrew, thanks for the note and I'm glad to see Derek and Spiral here....I hope JP will come back too. I think its fantastic to see specialization on key weapon forms, and the comprehensive material shared here is outstanding.


Thanks very much Gentlemen!!!

All the best,
Jim

[derek]

Good effort, Spiral.

Jim,

Here was Beoram's repsonse to the inscriptions on the 2nd and 3rd kukris in my post:

"I'm pretty sure now that the nicknames are in fact company names - or abbreviations thereof.

These would seem to match: Shree Naya Gorakh Battalion and
Shree Naya Shree Nath Battalion respectively.

na. go. = naya gorakh;
shrii: naa: = shrii naath"

Both begin with the "Shree 3 Chandra" nod to the Prime Minister, as Spiral noted above. The rest is a small leap in translation. Basically, if you view these characters as abbreviations they can be matched to existing battalions.

Again, it would be great to see a bigger sampling of these. If no one else can do it, I will make the trip no later than November. I'll try for sooner, but I keep hearing about the cost of fuel going up.....

[spiral]

Thankyou chaps!

Its nice to see such complete ones Derek, If I lived 4 hours from Atlanta you couldnt keep me out of there!

Spiral