Antique knife

Evgeny_K · 6th January 2017, 08:20 PM

Gents,
I need your help to ID this knife. It was found in the western part of Russia.
Knife lenght is 21 cm.
I was told that markings on the blade could be relevant to Styria.
Regrds,
Evgeny

Evgeny_K · 9th January 2017, 12:27 PM

any opinions?

fernando · 9th January 2017, 03:07 PM

Hi Evegny,

You may find that this kind of marks/symbols falls within a wide range of similar shapes, as for exmple:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=16.
Let's hope some member familiar with this area comes up with a precise ID.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2017, 12:27 AM

In the link provided by Fernando, a halberd with similar marks is shown as Swiss, latter 15th c. In Wallace Collection a dagger again with similar marks is shown as Swiss 16th c.
In a reference on medieval cutlery , "Knives and Daggers" (Cowgill; DeNeergaard; and Griffiths, 1987), these kinds of knives are apparently termed 'scale tang' knives (grips are mounted directly to tang sides by rivets) and seem to date to around mid 14th century. It is noted that marks began to be consistently applied around end of 14th in about 50% of examples. This reference is confined mostly to excavated examples in mostly London.

As London was of course considerably metropolitan, many continental wares and trade items from the Continent were present. It seems that these knives were of course common throughout, so isolating them to any particular location for origin seems pretty unlikely. There is an example of this type marking on several examples of both knives and shears.

By the same token, these kinds of marks are found on sword blades mostly in Germany and in Italy but are typically difficult to assign to any maker and stand mostly as quality associated symbols. They are commonly referred to as 'mill rinds' or 'cogwheels' by various writers, and often as using the heraldic term 'mullet'.
Such marks may have had significance to certain makers locally in the time of original production, but such specific records are not usually known, or sparsely detailed let alone accurate. Some '...records suggest that the mark belonged to the Master of the Workshop, but sheds no light on whether he used one, or a number of marks"..("Knives and Scabbards", p.33).

It would be equally possible for this knife to have come from Styria, who often spuriously used both Italian and German markings. Its appearance in Russian strata would be consistant with trade and normal diffusion.

ALEX · 10th January 2017, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It would be equally possible for this knife to have come from Styria...

I also agree. These marks are common on blades of vast Celtic origin, which Styria was part of. One theory is that they indicated quality of the blade, with one being low and three being top. Here's from "Celtic Long Swords with Punchmarks" by Duleba Przemyslaw, Institute of Archaeology, University of Warsaw: "The blades of certain Celtic swords were marked with punchmarks made with specially prepared stamp. The marks were punched in the top parts of the blades of two-edged swords (both in long swords as well as short ones with anthropomorphic hilts), usually a few centimeters below the hilt. Single punchmarks are most common, however marks in groups of two and even three have been found. Some marks were inlaid with gold, silver or brass. There have been various interpretations of the function of these punchmark. Attempts have been made to prove that these marks are the signs or “brands” of specific blacksmiths, and also signs of property, custom made for selected warriors,however, the most probable answer is that these are magical-religious symbols...". This refers to earlier Styrian swords of course, but could spill into adjacent/later periods.
For the reference, you may see the complete publication HERE

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2017, 03:30 AM

Alex,
Thank you so much for the excellent supportive information on this knife, and especially for this fantastic link!!! This is great to add to resources on punch marks.........very much appreciated.

All the best
Jim

Evgeny_K · 12th January 2017, 10:06 AM

Jim, Alex, thank you!
Punchmarks = indicators of quality looks quite convincing
Look at this sickle of the same period and from the same region - it bears three similar marks:

ALEX · 12th January 2017, 11:22 AM

Evgeny, the same conclusion about these marks was reached by several collectors of similar items that were discovered in Austria, which Styria was/is part of. It is hard to judge the quality of relic blades, but some correlation between number of marks, quality and/or complexity of production or construction can be noticed, so the theory remains plausible.

6th January 2017, 08:20 PM	#1
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Antique knife Gents, I need your help to ID this knife. It was found in the western part of Russia. Knife lenght is 21 cm. I was told that markings on the blade could be relevant to Styria. Regrds, Evgeny Attached Images

12th January 2017, 10:06 AM	#7
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	Jim, Alex, thank you! Punchmarks = indicators of quality looks quite convincing Look at this sickle of the same period and from the same region - it bears three similar marks: Attached Images

9th January 2017, 12:27 PM	#2
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 208	any opinions?

9th January 2017, 03:07 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Evegny, You may find that this kind of marks/symbols falls within a wide range of similar shapes, as for exmple: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=16. Let's hope some member familiar with this area comes up with a precise ID.

10th January 2017, 12:27 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	In the link provided by Fernando, a halberd with similar marks is shown as Swiss, latter 15th c. In Wallace Collection a dagger again with similar marks is shown as Swiss 16th c. In a reference on medieval cutlery , "Knives and Daggers" (Cowgill; DeNeergaard; and Griffiths, 1987), these kinds of knives are apparently termed 'scale tang' knives (grips are mounted directly to tang sides by rivets) and seem to date to around mid 14th century. It is noted that marks began to be consistently applied around end of 14th in about 50% of examples. This reference is confined mostly to excavated examples in mostly London. As London was of course considerably metropolitan, many continental wares and trade items from the Continent were present. It seems that these knives were of course common throughout, so isolating them to any particular location for origin seems pretty unlikely. There is an example of this type marking on several examples of both knives and shears. By the same token, these kinds of marks are found on sword blades mostly in Germany and in Italy but are typically difficult to assign to any maker and stand mostly as quality associated symbols. They are commonly referred to as 'mill rinds' or 'cogwheels' by various writers, and often as using the heraldic term 'mullet'. Such marks may have had significance to certain makers locally in the time of original production, but such specific records are not usually known, or sparsely detailed let alone accurate. Some '...records suggest that the mark belonged to the Master of the Workshop, but sheds no light on whether he used one, or a number of marks"..("Knives and Scabbards", p.33). It would be equally possible for this knife to have come from Styria, who often spuriously used both Italian and German markings. Its appearance in Russian strata would be consistant with trade and normal diffusion.

11th January 2017, 03:30 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Alex, Thank you so much for the excellent supportive information on this knife, and especially for this fantastic link!!! This is great to add to resources on punch marks.........very much appreciated. All the best Jim

12th January 2017, 11:22 AM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Evgeny, the same conclusion about these marks was reached by several collectors of similar items that were discovered in Austria, which Styria was/is part of. It is hard to judge the quality of relic blades, but some correlation between number of marks, quality and/or complexity of production or construction can be noticed, so the theory remains plausible.