Another Blade for ID please.

[milandro]

you may have seen the other blade for which I would like to have your help with identification..... and while I was busy with that blade, I came across this other one.

I know that buying an naked blade opens a whole new chapter which some may call “ a can of worms” to try to fit things to it but such is life! In an Ideal world we find complete krises but the reality is different.

The seller described this as a Javanese blade but It really doesn’t look like one.
It is very smooth and refined in its simplicity. I like it very much. Loos like it may be keeling although is you look at the metal there may be some waves in the structure.

Someone suggested it may be Dapur Megantoro but immediately said that there were parts not making it so.


So, what is it? What would be nice complements to it? Thank you

[jagabuwana]

I'd have guessed Javanese. The execution on the greneng is intriguing. Tikel alis looks to be in the old style.
I wonder if the fairly dainty kembang kacang would support an East Java classification.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

I know that buying an naked blade opens a whole new chapter which some may call “ a can of worms” to try to fit things to it but such is life! In an Ideal world we find complete krises but the reality is different.

In one sense, yes it does, but full dress really only tells us (perhaps) where the keris was dressed, not the origin of the blade itself.
I agree with Jag that this seems Javanese in origin, though i see what he means about the kembang kacang in relation to East Jawa.
What is most strange about this blade to me in the gonjo. It is somewhat like Gonjo Wilut, as you can see depicted in this illustration, but yours is flat on the bottom. Never seen the on any variety of wavy gonjo before. My first thought was that it might be a replacement gonjo that was adapted from something already formed, but when i look at it closely the iron seems the same and the pitting and wear but the pesi looks exactly the same on the gonjo as it does on the blade itself, so it all seems original.

[milandro]

Thanks, indeed the Ganja looks and feels absolutely contemporary to the rest of the blade.

The Sarong is not there so , I cannot refer to a Sarong that would have been there. I’ve shown this to some local kris people and they competed that they didn’t think this was Javanese.

But there you go, we shall see!

I can add that it feels extremely smooth to the touch comparable only to some of the Balinese blades that I have

[jagabuwana]

Milandro, how long is this keris?

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

Thanks, indeed the Ganja looks and feels absolutely contemporary to the rest of the blade.

The Sarong is not there so , I cannot refer to a Sarong that would have been there. I’ve shown this to some local kris people and they competed that they didn’t think this was Javanese.

But there you go, we shall see!

I can add that it feels extremely smooth to the touch comparable only to some of the Balinese blades that I have

Well, it does not appear to be Balinese to my eyes.
It should be noted that the practice of polishing blades to a smooth finish was once the case in Jawa as well as Bali.

[kai]

it feels extremely smooth to the touch comparable only to some of the Balinese blades that I have

From the pic, the blade has been smoothened out a bit; it's not in full polish though. (E.g. it doesn't seem to have the fine polish one would expect of a quality blade from Bali in original condition.)

Based on the limited but uneven pitting (several plausible causes though), the steel doesn't seem to hold up especially well, too. I'd suppose it wasn't washed enough during the initial forge work.

This blade screams kamardikan to me. Very upright/stiff posture. Especially the gonjo construction doesn't make any sense! (The thinnest, weak part around the pesi just asks for a break...)

Probably impossible to fathom any specific origin, at least based on traditional cues... I certainly wouldn't be surprised to learn this being done by a modern Madurese pande keris; OTOH, it could be from pretty much anywhere else, too, I guess.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Someone suggested it may be Dapur Megantoro but immediately said that there were parts not making it so.

Did you ask what this suggestion was based on?

For the life of me, I can't see any of the typical megantoro features in this example!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Two questions:-

can we please have a photo, or maybe if necessary a couple of photos that show the top of the gonjo, ie, looking straight down onto the tip of the pesi; I would like to see the overall outline and especially the sirah cecak and buntut urang.


what is the length of this blade?

[milandro]

36cm the blade proper 44cm including the peksi which feels strong.

I never even suggested it was Balinese I just said that it is as smooth as some of the balinese krises in my possession.

Pictures as requested.

[kai]

I never even suggested it was Balinese I just said that it is as smooth as some of the balinese krises in my possession.

Yes, I noted that you did not suggest that. Just wanted to point out that the surface is not typical/traditional Bali either.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Thanks for the pics!

The sirah cecak is quite asymmetrical...

[A. G. Maisey]

I cannot see evidence of a core.

I can see several indicators that incline me to think East Jawa, maybe Madura, after 1850.

The after 1850 guess is because it does not look as if it has a core and material of adequate quality might not have been available pre-1850.

Garap is careless, manufacture would have been low cost.

I do not think it is Kamardikan.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

I never even suggested it was Balinese I just said that it is as smooth as some of the balinese krises in my possession.

While i realize that you never stated that you thought it was Balinese and understand now that you don't believe it is, when you make a post saying that local keris people didn't think it was Javanese, but then say that the surface of the blade is similar to some Balinese keris you have seen that can indeed appear as a suggestion that you might believe it could be Balinese.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I cannot see evidence of a core.

I can see several indicators that incline me to think East Jawa, maybe Madura...

I do not think it is Kamardikan.

Thank you Alan, so, if you were to advise a new Sarong a Maduran sarong wou/ld be appropriate? I have a friend who has one and that maybe fitting the blade , he has already fitted 3 blades to Sarongs and he possess the ability to do so.

[jagabuwana]

Milandro, I know you didn't ask me directly, but I hope you allow me to interject.

The subject of what cultural/regional style to dress a keris in seems to yield different answers and expectations, depending on your view.

Collectors seem to value having the dress match the keris. But this wasn't much of a concern historically. A keris can travel pretty far from where it started and where it was originally dressed. What's more important is that the keris' sheath and handle are in good condition.

If you'd like advice as to the aesthetic suitability or tastefulness of the current dress, then I'm sure more experienced members of this forum can weigh in.

But if you want to know whether it should be Madura, or Solo, or Malay etc., then it's more about whether you want the kind of uniformity that's valued in the collector world.

[milandro]

Thank you Jagabuwana for your much valued opinion

I begin to realize that indeed things like this are very relative in the world of the kris.
I will probably send it to a friend and he will see whether to dress it himself with a suitable dress or send it to Indonesia to have it dressed in a pleasing manner for me.

[A. G. Maisey]

Milandro, Jaga is pretty much correct with what he has written about dress for blades, but I will extend his comments just a little.

We need to make this decision about dress on a case by case basis.

If I had Mataram Sultan Agung keris that needed to be dressed I would not consider putting it into anything other than good quality Solo or Jogja dress, I'd probably use a silver pendok and I'd try for the best wrongko I could find, I would want a good quality hilt, preferably an older tayuman one, and a good quality silver mendak.

This sort of dress would cost a lot of money, the blade would also have a high value.

At the end of the exercise I'd have a pretty expensive keris, and one that not a real lot of collectors could afford, or for that matter, would have the education to appreciate.

However, as the quality of the blade to be dressed decreased, so would the amount of money that should be spent on its dress also decrease:- it is a totally pointless exercise to put an average or lesser quality blade into high quality dress. You can never get your invested money back again, you must tune the dress to the keris itself.

So, when we talk about sending an average blade back to Jawa or Bali to have it dressed, we need to consider the costs involved, and that comes down to just one question:- can I get my investment back if I want to sell in a few years time?

All collectors in all fields do sell, its the way we build a better & better collection.

For this keris of yours, if it were mine, I would probably use something second hand, I would not take it Jawa to get it done, I'd do it myself, if I had just bought it in Jawa, I'd give it to a tukang wrongko there to do. This is easy for me, because I normally spend two or three months every year in Jawa/Bali. It is more difficult for people who do not regularly visit Indonesia & who do not have the connections.

As for style of dress for your keris, any Javanese dress would be OK, Solo or Jogja would probably be what it finished up with, simply because these two styles are the most easily obtained.

Before diving into the deep end and sending it across the world to get it done, I suggest that you look around locally and see what you can come up with, then make this a learning exercise and do the fitting yourself, trust me, it is not rocket science --- and you can always ask for advice from people who have done this little job themselves.

But stick with a Jawa or Madura style, forget Bali or anything else from outside Jawa/Madura.

[milandro]

cheers Alan, thank you