Shamshir information needed

[VANDERNOTTE]

Hello,


Who can help me to find the dates in this Shamshir? And other insciptions if somebody knows. I´m a collector from Lima, Perú. I´ve been collecting for over fourty years and it is not usual no find oriental blades here.

I post some pictures of the shamshir. I have many more if needed.

thanks,

Jacques Vandernotte

[ALEX]

Jacques, welcome to the Forum,
This is an outstanding blade, forged of wootz (true Damascus steel) and nicely gold-inlaid. It is Indo-Persian, 18 or 19 Century, mounted with European (ivory) hilt and crossguard. There are members here who will help with translation, but I just wanted to comment on the blade - truly nice!!! It is very rare nowadays to find such a nice blade with that many gold inscriptions in such good condition. Congratulations on owning it.

[AJ1356]

This is crap, you can throw it away, or better just ship it to me All jokes aside, this is an Assadullah Isfahani sword, very beautifully made, get better pictures of the text and I'll translate the text for you. It is a Persian sword, made in the 1600's.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

It is a Persian sword, made in the 1600's.

What are the arguments this is 17th Century blade? The name AssadUllah has been used since then up until 19th Century.

[A.alnakkas]

welcome to the forum!

This is a very fine Persian shamshir blade. I find that it has a European hilt very interesting. Maybe its an early Mamluke sabre? I know that Napoleon's army found the swords of Mamlukes very desirable so it could be one.

[AJ1356]

ALEX, Assadullah was a Safavid era swordsmith, and the Safavids ruled during the 1600s. Better pictures of the text would help us clarify that.

[ALEX]

Early Mamluk??? You mean even earlier than 16th Century? Now it's getting interesting.... Seriously, based on quality of inlay, shape and curvature of the sword it points to 18-19 C. Based on the fact that it has AssadUllah name and French liked Mamluk swords - it could be 16th or 12th C respectively.

"AssadUllah" is one of most copied names, spanning 300+ years. This is certainly hight quality blade, and could be early one, but to determine if earlier than 18th Century, translation and better close-ups are needed.

[A.alnakkas]

Alex, you are mixing between me and AJ.

What I meant by 'early' mamluke sabre is that its from the early generation of swords taken by Napoleon's army during the invasion of Egypt. to me, the other generation of European 'mamluke' swords are the ones made in Europe with European everything. Napoleon invaded Egypt in the 19th century, yep?

Early Mamluke swords were straight as far as I know :P

[ALEX]

Got it, Lofty. Thatns for clarification. By 'early' mamluke" I assumed pre-17th Century:-). You're right, those were straight.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Got it, Lofty. Thatns for clarification. By 'early' mamluke" I assumed pre-17th Century:-). You're right, those were straight.

Hey Alex, nps man.

I wonder, is there more example of such sabres? I remember seeing a painting of some English man with a kilij. Plenty of French men with kilijs too. What made the mamluke sabre ( as in the kilij used by mamlukes of Egypt during the 19th century) desirable by the French? Werent there also fine sabres such as the 1796 LC?

Many questions, but I find it interesting!

[Dom]

Bonsoir Jacques, welcome on board
the handle of the sword is furiously French 1st empire
the blade is without contest an spoils of war
both are absolutely wonderful, but not from the same origin
it's a sword for an very hight ranked officer, either for a Marchall
I saw (but for time been, I'm out of my doc...) in an auction,
a sword with a very similar handle, but mounted with an European blade

for my friends Alex and Lofti, ... and the others
I may explain why the French army was completely fascinated and infatuated with these swords,
- they were very impressed by the quality of the steel,
- they was very impressed by the slashing, due to the very good balance of these edged weapons,
- and ... not the less, the beauty of these weapons richly decorated in general

as far it's Arabic language, I have a translation,
for what it's concerning to the "Farsi" our friend "AJ1356" will be in charge

you have the sign for the blacksmith
AMAL ASFA'ANI ASSAD ALLAH either MADE BY ASSAD ALLAH THE ASFA'ANI (from Ispahan - Persia)

there is a magic square with 4 letters, very difficult to know the hidden meaning

extracted from Surat "al bayina" (?), but it's certain it's from the Holy Koran
but then to find the relevant passage ...
some more pic's will be necessary, if you want to get a complete idea of the mentions engraved on your sword, that's hope to you

à +

Dom

[VANDERNOTTE]

Bonsoir a tout le monde;

Thanks everybody for the welcome. I send you the rest of the pictures of the shamshir. Imagine how I found it that it took me two weeks of work to clean it. It was found in a roof, where it sat for over 45 years. Sadly, the scabard was ruined, only the suspension rings were to clean. But all this made the blade survive.

I attach pictures of other inscription in the blade and the suspension rings. Tomorrow I'll take more pictures of the right side of the blade.


Jacques

[AJ1356]

Before reading DOMs post I was thinking the same, that the hilt would be a later addition, and with the scabard fittings it shows Earopean style. The blade is Persian no doubt, with a mix of Arabic and Persian texts, the text on the spine is Arabic, most likely from the holy Qur'an, Lutfy or DOM could help with that, There are Persian text on the blade face itself but I need pics of it. All I can see is the begining of a sentence that reads "This sword/Shamshir.....

[Dom]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

the text on the spine is Arabic, most likely from the holy Qur'an, Lutfy or DOM could help with that

yes, we are working on, it is indeed a Koranic text,
and by the way, we'll have a look about the 2 small cartouches
but short mentions, issued from a huge book as well as the Holy Quran
it's like looking for a needle in a haystack, but might be ... Inch'Allah

nevertheless, I noticed several coats of arms on scabbard fittings
it's not too much my field ... but there is something to dig ... there

à +

Dom

[VANDERNOTTE]

Hello everyone;

these are the rest of the pictures. I thank all of you for the information given and the effort to decipher the insciptions.

Following AJ1356 directions, I will give it away to the Salvation Army if the inscription can't be translated.

Jacques

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Dom

nevertheless, I noticed several coats of arms on scabbard fittings
it's not too much my field ... but there is something to dig ... there

Dom

Indeed.

For those who may not have noticed, the suspension rings appear to be a variation of the sepent swallowing their own tails;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

An awesome sabre of outstanding quality and value that would be the highlight of anyones collection, one you should be very proud to own, I know I would.

I must add, from your description, you have done a very fine job of restoring it too.

Thank you for bringing such a fine and interesting sword to the table.

Gav

[AJ1356]

Jaques,
You don't have to give it to the Salvation Army, You can always send it to me.
The text is quite interesting. On the last picture the text is not complete, so a petter picture would help, also any other text that has not been translated take pics of it and I'll take care of it.
Here is what we got from now.
این شمشیر یادکار سرکار بلند اقتدار میر مراد علی خان تالپر والی ملک سند بجهته عالیجاه جیمس برنس صاحب بجهته اخوی ارجمند الکسندر برنس صاحب بدیدارت
سرکار میر مراد علی خان تالپر مدد یا علی علیه السلام

So basically this was sort of a gift from one guy to this other guy's brother. Trans { This shamshir is a "gift" (it say a memory from) high powered overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Governor of Sindh (which is now the pakistani and indian panjabs) for High placed sir James Burns for his dear brother sir Alexander Burns} "Till we meet" <---- not exact trans but close enough that is why I put it in qoutations. I used lowered case S for Sir, because the person may not have been knighted but the word Saaheb is used in that manner.
Overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Help O Ali Alaih e Salaam
I used overseer because it is the direct translation for the word Sarkaar, but It used to be a title as well mainly from those of high station in government. The guy is the governor, of a what was one of British India major provences.


So this could shadder the whole idea of the hilt being a later addition, the hilt and the fittings could have been made at the time the blade was made. Also it shadder the 1600's time frame I offered.

[AJ1356]

The Arabic Text from the spine,

قاتلوا الذین لا یومنون با لله و لا بالیوم الآخر و لا یحرمون ما حرم الله و رسوله و لا یدینون دین الحق

The native Arabs can correct my limited Arabic but here is a try,

Kill this that don't believe in God and the Last Day( day of judgement) and don't respect? the Sanctuary of God and his Messenger and ....... the right religion.

[AJ1356]

First picture in the post,
تا حیاتت این تیغ نامدار
بر میانت از برادر یادگار
Till your life this "famous" blade
Would remain a memory from (your) brother

گر یار در جنگ یزدان بود
----------- چندان بود
If God is your friend in Combat
hidden behind the hand guard) would be many

Get me the pther pictures I asked, there is a mention of Alexamder the Mecedonian and The fountain of Life.

[VANDERNOTTE]

I would like to thank once again everybody for your help and specially AJ1356 for the translations! It gives me a new perspeftive about the blade and its origins.

It´s possible that the blade arrived to this side of the world during Independence of Peru. Some french and english were fighting for independence causes, between 1821 and 1824.

Jacques

[spiral]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Jaques,
You don't have to give it to the Salvation Army, You can always send it to me.
The text is quite interesting. On the last picture the text is not complete, so a petter picture would help, also any other text that has not been translated take pics of it and I'll take care of it.
Here is what we got from now.
این شمشیر یادکار سرکار بلند اقتدار میر مراد علی خان تالپر والی ملک سند بجهته عالیجاه جیمس برنس صاحب بجهته اخوی ارجمند الکسندر برنس صاحب بدیدارت
سرکار میر مراد علی خان تالپر مدد یا علی علیه السلام

So basically this was sort of a gift from one guy to this other guy's brother. Trans { This shamshir is a "gift" (it say a memory from) high powered overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Governor of Sindh (which is now the pakistani and indian panjabs) for High placed sir James Burns for his dear brother sir Alexander Burns} "Till we meet" <---- not exact trans but close enough that is why I put it in qoutations. I used lowered case S for Sir, because the person may not have been knighted but the word Saaheb is used in that manner.
Overseer Mir Murad Ali Khan Taalper Help O Ali Alaih e Salaam
I used overseer because it is the direct translation for the word Sarkaar, but It used to be a title as well mainly from those of high station in government. The guy is the governor, of a what was one of British India major provences.


So this could shadder the whole idea of the hilt being a later addition, the hilt and the fittings could have been made at the time the blade was made. Also it shadder the 1600's time frame I offered.

Nice find. mmm... From, wiki....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Burnes

spiral

Alexander Burns.

His proposal in 1829 to undertake a journey of exploration through the valley of the Indus River was not carried out for political reasons; but in 1831 he was sent to Lahore with a present of horses from King William IV to Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The British claimed that the horses would not survive the overland journey, so they were allowed to transport the horses up the Indus and used the opportunity to secretly survey the river. In the following years, in company with Mohan Lal, his travels continued through Afghanistan across the Hindu Kush to Bukhara (in what is modern Uzbekistan) and Persia.

The narrative which he published on his visit to England in 1834 added immensely to contemporary knowledge of these countries, and was one of the most popular books of the time. The first edition earned the author £800, and his services were recognized not only by the Royal Geographical Society of London, but also by that of Paris. He was also elected a Fellow of the Royal Society the same year. [3] Soon after his return to India in 1835 he was appointed to the court of Sindh to secure a treaty for the navigation of the Indus and in 1836 he undertook a political mission to Dost Mahommed Khan at Kabul.

[Richard G]

Just a small correction to AJ1356's post no.17. Sindh is a separate province, south of the Punjab. It's capital is Karachi.
It was taken by Sir Charles Napier for the E.I.C. in 1843. The family name of the defeated Amirs of Scinde was Talpeer.
Alexander Burnes was an explorer who travelled up the Indus and through the Himalayas to Bukhara and Persia, writing a memoir of his travels. He was appointed by the E.I.C. to Scinde as political agent. He was then sent to Kabul(Afghanistan) to help establish Shah Shuja as a pro British ruler. He was assasinated during an insurrection in 1841 which precipitated the evacuation of the E.I.C. contingent from Kabul. Of 17,000, only 40 managed to get back across the Khyber pass.
So, not only a beautiful sword, but also one of historic significance.
Regards
Richard
PS Alexander Burns was apparently none as "Sekundar" Burnes which may explain the refernce to Alexander the Great.

[AJ1356]

Richard, what happened to james Burns then, form the text it seems like the governor knew James Burns not Alexander Burns.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

Hello,


Who can help me to find the dates in this Shamshir? And other insciptions if somebody knows. I´m a collector from Lima, Perú. I´ve been collecting for over fourty years and it is not usual no find oriental blades here.

I post some pictures of the shamshir. I have many more if needed.

thanks,

Jacques Vandernotte

Salaams VANDERNOTTE ~Looking at the box with a single letter in each on your blade, please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=4&pp=30 at post number 110 for a description of this style of talismanic mark. Above at #11 Dom has done some detective work on the subject also.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

It´s possible that the blade arrived to this side of the world during Independence of Peru. Some french and english were fighting for independence causes, between 1821 and 1824.

Hi Jacques
I have recognized the "patte" of French furbisher of the Empire time on the handle

à +

Dom

[Richard G]

AJ1356,
Dr James Burnes was an elder brother of Alexander Burnes. He was certainly active in Bombay about this time and may well have visited Scinde, He is most famous (?) for being a prominent Freemason and founding the first lodge open to non-europeans in Bombay in 1843.

In my opinion this is an old blade valued by the Talpeers and inscribed on their instruction around 1843, and three reasons spring to mind:-
1, They had geniune respect for his brother Alexander.
2, It could have been diplomatically advantageous to keep a British official "onside" in 1842/3.
3, the Masonic connection.
It seems unlikely that they would have presented a blade only, but the mounts and scabbard fittings are definitely English from around this time, in the style of a British mameluke hilted General Officers sword (pattern 1831) which also became a popular pattern for diplomatic dress etc.

I think this sword, despite it's lack of scabbard, could fetch significant money (in my terms, anyway) on the London art market and is certainly worth further investigation, e.g. is there an important Peruvian connection?
Regards
Richard

PS, You know, looking back at the pictures, I'm not so sure the hilt and fittings are English:-
1, the scabbard fittings look like Bombay or Kutch work if you ignore the armorial,
2, the overall curve of the hilt is not what you would expect from an English maker,
3, the langets look a bit thin and the hilt seems to be seated in a a black lac.

Intriguing?

[Richard G]

Found this: http://www.talpur.com/. Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talpur

Obviously the author has a point of view not all will agree with, but it is interesting to see the family is still very active today.

Briefly, Dr James Burnes was sent as a doctor to Mir Murad Ali Khan in Scinde in 1827. Mir Murad Ali Khan later became governor of Khaipur and, in essence, was part of a plot, in collaboration with the E.I.C., to replace his cousin as top dog in Scinde. It was the refusal of his brothers and cousins to go along with this that led to the annexation of Scinde by Napier in 1843.

Go to the gallery section of the family website and you can see a photo of a Mir Ali Murad Khan Talpur when an old man. Could this be the same man?

Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

Bonsoir a tout le monde;

Thanks everybody for the welcome. I send you the rest of the pictures of the shamshir. Imagine how I found it that it took me two weeks of work to clean it. It was found in a roof, where it sat for over 45 years. Sadly, the scabard was ruined, only the suspension rings were to clean. But all this made the blade survive.

I attach pictures of other inscription in the blade and the suspension rings. Tomorrow I'll take more pictures of the right side of the blade.


Jacques

Salaams all ~ Focusing on the heraldic symbols I see peacocks dominating the scabbard furniture design. The Peacock; though it is the national bird of India means "divine protection" when applied in the Persian sense in respect to their inclusion on carpet designs which I feel more obvious when applied to swords! I am trying to trace the other heraldic symbols so far with no result...Any Islamic Heraldic Symbol specialists out there though they do appear to be European designs..?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Richard G

PS, You know, looking back at the pictures, I'm not so sure the hilt and fittings are English:-
1, the scabbard fittings look like Bombay or Kutch work if you ignore the armorial,

...which would explain the prominence of the peacock on each.

Jacques, was there enough of the original scabbard remaining for you to be able to describe it's construction? I ask as considering you have the original fittings, were this in my collection, I would seriously consider having a replacement scabbard professionally made.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all ~ Focusing on the heraldic symbols I see peacocks dominating the scabbard furniture design. The Peacock; though it is the national bird of India means "divine protection" when applied in the Persian sense in respect to their inclusion on carpet designs which I feel more obvious when applied to swords! I am trying to trace the other heraldic symbols so far with no result...Any Islamic Heraldic Symbol specialists out there though they do appear to be European designs..?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

You beat me to the punch on the peacock...

I think Gav's (wonderful) observation of the Ouroboros design of the scabbard rings, the syncretic systems gaining traction in Europe at the time, and Richard's fascinating note of Burns' involvement in Freemasonry all speak to a possibility of a symbolic syncretism at work in the furniture and fittings. The talismanic Islamic inscriptions and symbolism on the blade would have been congruent and consistent in the eyes of an 'enlightened' individual of the era.

Cheers,

Chris