Manding sword with German blade

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Just thought I would let members see a sword from my collection. Manding but with a good quality German sabre blade by F W HOLLER of Solingen. I had owned this sword for years before I realised how well it was marked. Sadly the markings are so faint that try as I may I cannot photograph them. On one side of the blade is the makers name , but on the other is a very nice scene of a native American with Iroquois type hair style shooting a mountain lion with a long rifle in a landscape bizarrely of a Palm tree and mountain.

[Iain]

Nice piece! Always been intrigued why so many of these military sabre blades show up in Manding pieces but so few show up in kaskara or takouba mounts. Even though there are enough curved takouba and kaskara to illustrate that they weren't adverse to the occasional curved blade.

Markings sound particularly intriguing, a pity they are too faint to photograph easily. One idea would be to rub a little flour or other white powder into the marks and you might be able to get a photo of the outline that way and still easily clean up afterwards. Assuming there's enough indentation in the marks.

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Originally Posted by Iain

Nice piece! Always been intrigued why so many of these military sabre blades show up in Manding pieces but so few show up in kaskara or takouba mounts. Even though there are enough curved takouba and kaskara to illustrate that they weren't adverse to the occasional curved blade.

Markings sound particularly intriguing, a pity they are too faint to photograph easily. One idea would be to rub a little flour or other white powder into the marks and you might be able to get a photo of the outline that way and still easily clean up afterwards. Assuming there's enough indentation in the marks.

Thanks Iain .. just tried the flour technique but sadly the markings are just too faint to be picked out . They are so clear under a hand lens that it is frustrating not to be able to photograph them !

[Iain]

Can be worth a try photographing through the hand lens. Just hold the lens right up to the front of the lens of the camera, might be able to focus still.

[Mefidk]

Unless you have already tried it you could try placing the light source obliquely to the blade. If there is any kind of depression in the pattern then some of it should come up. Works with bulb and a tripod support or a remote flash. Lines running parallel to the light are not visible, but if its drawing-like that might not matter too much. Takes a bit of messing about to get this right, but it works well when it works.
Chris

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Thanks Iain & Mefidk .. have tried your suggestions and it has produced some results albeit poor. Re the makers name. OK , its not readable but at least it is clear that it is European .

[Iain]

Thanks for the pictures, can more or less make out the marks now. Very odd, have to wonder where this blade was destined for originally. Any chance the Native American scene was added later? Or does it look original to the blade?

I'm afraid I don't know much about Holler as a maker except that the firm produced a lot of WWII era blades.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Iain

Thanks for the pictures, can more or less make out the marks now. Very odd, have to wonder where this blade was destined for originally. Any chance the Native American scene was added later? Or does it look original to the blade?

I'm afraid I don't know much about Holler as a maker except that the firm produced a lot of WWII era blades.

It does look contemporary with the blade ... looking on the internet I found an American dealer in American Civil War swords who had a Confederate sabre with a similar blade made by Holler .. so maybe it is ex ACW .

[Jim McDougall]

This one has an intriguing tale, and as we always say, these weapons usually do if we care to look hard enough.
The Solingen firm FW HOLLER indeed was registered 1866 (Walter, 1973, p.060-063) but is likely part of reconfiguring and reorganizing of firms around these times from the earlier Holler company.
Under these initials the firm apparantly had agents in London, William Meyerstern & Co. operating at Love Lane, Ward St. 1870-1887, but remained listed there until 1895.

On another thread just posted with a Brazilian espada ("Spanish Colonial thread) with the maker Carl Jurmann (1848-1868) Solingen, I noted that this makers blades were exported by Maas & Schoverling to the firm of Herman Boker, a N.Y. hardware and sword dealer in 1861. (Bezdek, p.110).

It is interesting that in a footnote in the well travelled Briggs article we have been using there is a reference to blades imported into the Saharan networks coming from America. He notes he has never substantiated this particular aspect but perhaps this might explain if these German made blades were coming into the U.S. at New York....and as noted into other areas supplying Confederate forces with swords as well.

The British were well established as suppliers to the Confederate forces via routes into the Caribbean and there are patterns of British swords known specific to these orders such as M1853 sabres by Isaac & Co.

These waters of course were part of the 'Spanish Main' including with trade from North Africa and the colonies there. French trade was also included and German trade blades often appear on French swords. While many French military blades typically are found on the Manding sabres, they also occur on Tuareg sabres of takouba form (aljuinar) usually in Mali and Burkina Faso.
This is why these blades are so commonly among these swords as far as I have considered.

I am unclear why a Confederate sword would have an FW HOLLER blade if they did not begin using that initial until 1866, but it does seem there was a Holler supplying sabre blades among earlier blades usually to Union swords though. I have also seen Walscheid and Weyersberg union sabres, in fact I believe the M1840 used by the Union was initially produced in Solingen.

With the interesting scene engraved on the blade, Germany did have a distinct affinity for the American wild west, and quite likely this blade may have been intended perhaps for post Civil War market officers or other fraternal military sword use. Again, somehow it ended up in the trade networks to North Africa.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This one has an intriguing tale, and as we always say, these weapons usually do if we care to look hard enough.
The Solingen firm FW HOLLER indeed was registered 1866 (Walter, 1973, p.060-063) but is likely part of reconfiguring and reorganizing of firms around these times from the earlier Holler company.
Under these initials the firm apparantly had agents in London, William Meyerstern & Co. operating at Love Lane, Ward St. 1870-1887, but remained listed there until 1895.

On another thread just posted with a Brazilian espada ("Spanish Colonial thread) with the maker Carl Jurmann (1848-1868) Solingen, I noted that this makers blades were exported by Maas & Schoverling to the firm of Herman Boker, a N.Y. hardware and sword dealer in 1861. (Bezdek, p.110).

It is interesting that in a footnote in the well travelled Briggs article we have been using there is a reference to blades imported into the Saharan networks coming from America. He notes he has never substantiated this particular aspect but perhaps this might explain if these German made blades were coming into the U.S. at New York....and as noted into other areas supplying Confederate forces with swords as well.

The British were well established as suppliers to the Confederate forces via routes into the Caribbean and there are patterns of British swords known specific to these orders such as M1853 sabres by Isaac & Co.

These waters of course were part of the 'Spanish Main' including with trade from North Africa and the colonies there. French trade was also included and German trade blades often appear on French swords. While many French military blades typically are found on the Manding sabres, they also occur on Tuareg sabres of takouba form (aljuinar) usually in Mali and Burkina Faso.
This is why these blades are so commonly among these swords as far as I have considered.

I am unclear why a Confederate sword would have an FW HOLLER blade if they did not begin using that initial until 1866, but it does seem there was a Holler supplying sabre blades among earlier blades usually to Union swords though. I have also seen Walscheid and Weyersberg union sabres, in fact I believe the M1840 used by the Union was initially produced in Solingen.

With the interesting scene engraved on the blade, Germany did have a distinct affinity for the American wild west, and quite likely this blade may have been intended perhaps for post Civil War market officers or other fraternal military sword use. Again, somehow it ended up in the trade networks to North Africa.

As always Jim, a comprehensive and informative answer . Yes I too was a bit confused when I was told FW Holler only started up in 1866 , as to why they would have made a Confed sword. Any way I rechecked and it was A.E Holler ... so presumably this now makes sense . Re the supply of swords by Britain to the Confederacy , have you ever seen the rather good little booklet 'Imports from The United Kingdom 1861-1865' ? It details all types of military equipment bought by the Confederacy fron the UK . It was published & sold by the American Civil War Museum in Philadelphia . I visited it many years ago and happily bought a lot of copies of the book , as they have now closed down . I believe the intention is to reopen in 2014 ..
Richmond

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Richmond, and as always it is my absolute pleasure to have the opportunity to research these intriguing weapons and learn from them. There are often so many gaps in the perspective concerning certain dynamics of periods, regions and how they are often all connected. Typically for example, the general perspective on the Civil War here has its focus of course on the usual battles and events in the South. However, what seldom comes into much of the understanding is these kinds of factors with more international and commercial aspects.

Solingen in the 19th century was undergoing many of the same commercial strains as may be expected with the burgeoning advance of the industrial revolution, and amalgamation of firms struggling to remain competitive and productivity maximiized. Many of these firms were families in business for many generations, so the familiar surnames must be evaluated by the initials reflecting what period suggested by which members are indicated.

It is interesting that these sabres, actually termed 'kota' colloquially by a Fulani tribesman from Guinea I talked with once (probably a general 'sword' term), are almost invariably mounted with cavalry sabre blades. These are usually presumed French with their colonial presence in these regions of the Sudan/Sahel but German made blades often were used in military swords of France and various other countries in these times. As Iain has pointed out, the term 'Manding' is actually more of a linguistic classification which may reference various tribal groups in these Sahelian regions.

I havent actuually heard of the booklet you mention, but it sounds like an important resource much as many of these 'small but mighty' references are
I think the most fascinating thing about the Civil War is not the seemingly neverending hashed over lore and histories, but these unusual aspects which lean toward more of the esoteric material.

Thank you very much again for posting this, and your kind and detailed response.

All the best,
Jim

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Richmond, and as always it is my absolute pleasure to have the opportunity to research these intriguing weapons and learn from them. There are often so many gaps in the perspective concerning certain dynamics of periods, regions and how they are often all connected. Typically for example, the general perspective on the Civil War here has its focus of course on the usual battles and events in the South. However, what seldom comes into much of the understanding is these kinds of factors with more international and commercial aspects.

Solingen in the 19th century was undergoing many of the same commercial strains as may be expected with the burgeoning advance of the industrial revolution, and amalgamation of firms struggling to remain competitive and productivity maximiized. Many of these firms were families in business for many generations, so the familiar surnames must be evaluated by the initials reflecting what period suggested by which members are indicated.

It is interesting that these sabres, actually termed 'kota' colloquially by a Fulani tribesman from Guinea I talked with once (probably a general 'sword' term), are almost invariably mounted with cavalry sabre blades. These are usually presumed French with their colonial presence in these regions of the Sudan/Sahel but German made blades often were used in military swords of France and various other countries in these times. As Iain has pointed out, the term 'Manding' is actually more of a linguistic classification which may reference various tribal groups in these Sahelian regions.

I havent actuually heard of the booklet you mention, but it sounds like an important resource much as many of these 'small but mighty' references are
I think the most fascinating thing about the Civil War is not the seemingly neverending hashed over lore and histories, but these unusual aspects which lean toward more of the esoteric material.

Thank you very much again for posting this, and your kind and detailed response.

All the best,
Jim

I agree entirely , thanks again
Richmond