1780's Brit/Irish/American? cavalry sword

[Will M]

After no success of narrowing down this sword or the maker "WYATT" I'll try here.
The inner guard and the scabbard mouth marked A/57 and the blade ricasso marked "WYATT", both are stamped in. A curved clip point blade 35 5/8" well sharpened.
Grip with iron wire over leather.
Found the sword in a Philadelphia auction and I did find a Wyatt silversmith around 1790 but no further info, could be coincidence. Seems too well made to be American though they did import blades etc.
So I have a name and know there were at least 57 swords and most likely more.
I know the NAM has over 200 1788p swords and I'm told they are not all the same but I don't live on that side of the pond to find out.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Will M

After no success of narrowing down this sword or the maker "WYATT" I'll try here...

Hi Will, what do you mean by trying here ?
This is the third thread you start with this sword ... here .
Expecting to have better luck this time .

[Will M]

Time flew by and I totally forgot I posted previously.

Can remove this post as it has been already done

[fernando]

Oh no. Let it stay; no problem

[M ELEY]

I still say (from my earlier opinion!) that it's British, based on the quality, hilt style/wrap and bun-shaped pommel (makes me think of Scot/Brit baskethilts). The clipped blade is a little bit of a conundrum, matching more of an American aspect of Amer naval swords of that 1790-1800 era (think "Baltimore" cutlasses). Perhaps this was made in the UK for the Americans? Not unheard of, they were doing that even when we were at war wit them!! Merchants had no such quarrels. Still, as you yourself pointed out, there are some finely made American pieces, especially post Revolution. At this period, Rose and Prahl were getting started making some of the best!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Will,
I'm glad you posted it again!!!! I must have missed the other posts.
Anyway, we don't have a limit one to a customer and trust me, I make lots of misteakes getting worse every year.

As Mark has well and observantly noted, this example does look like British hilt components, and that bun shaped pommel is seen on British basket hilt cavalry swords c. 1750+ (Neumann, p.70, 27.S).
The guard is the characteristic 'four slot' guard of 1760s-80s, but with lateral branches added, as on varying examples. (Neumann p.179, 352.S).

It must be remembered that in these times, people of the American colonies were actually still quite British, and weapons and components were of course remarkably mixed. Innovative smiths and various artisans in the Colonies assembled many weapons using components available .

While most hilts British I have seen have the four slot guard without the branchs, usually the tall olive pommel, and usually straight backsword blades.
The 1788 patterns were well established as far as the light cavalry sabres but the so called 'heavy' cavalry (dragoon) types sometimes thought of as M1788 remain unconfirmed. There were of course variations with the lateral bars or even more complex 'basket' design.
These were pre-regulation (that began 1796) so variation was typical.

The blade with the curious clipped point (termed 'pandour point' in Europe) were it seems well known on hangers and sabres in Europe. In Neumann, I could find no comparative examples, but am inclined to think this may well have been a blade from a European sabre, probably mounted with a British hilt in America in these times.

While the British seemed to retain their straight blades, the Americans favored the curved. The stamping of the name on the ricasso seems to be an American proclivity. In Nuemann ( 316.S, p167) a hanger whose blade had similar wide single fuller along back of blade is stamped at ricasso POTTER.
While I cannot find Wyatt among listed smiths, silversmiths et al often furbished arms as required I believe .

[Will M]

Thanks very much for the replies. I was hoping the name would shed some light on the sword, but to no avail.
It is marked A/57 which appears to me as a British system of marking, possibly carried on by Americans at this time?
I was hoping to find another somewhere but nothing has surfaced.
I can't help but think an identical sword is sitting in a museum or collection that I may never find.
As someone pointed out before the sword has been sharpened and maintained sharp. It still holds a cutting edge with a once over could be a razor.
Could have been the sword of a famous cavalry regiment, can only surmise.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Will M

Thanks very much for the replies. I was hoping the name would shed some light on the sword, but to no avail.
It is marked A/57 which appears to me as a British system of marking, possibly carried on by Americans at this time?
I was hoping to find another somewhere but nothing has surfaced.
I can't help but think an identical sword is sitting in a museum or collection that I may never find.
As someone pointed out before the sword has been sharpened and maintained sharp. It still holds a cutting edge with a once over could be a razor.
Could have been the sword of a famous cavalry regiment, can only surmise.

As mentioned, 'Americans' in these times were effectively British colonized in America. Naturally it is quite plausible that a system of marking weapons in accord with British ones is possible.It seems somewhat determined that these components are British and thus retained original markings and the scabbard throat may well have been as well. The leather on the grip seems remarkably fresh as if restored using wire wrap consistant with period.
Is it possible a new leather scabbard may have been sewn in period to the existing scabbard throat?

As for silversmiths refurbishing swords from components, it should be noted that Harold Peterson wrote a companion book to his "The American Sword" on American silver hilted swords. It would stand to reason that while they were focused on fashioned silvered hilts, they had access to many components and were known to have exchanged and acquired items such as pommels between vendors.
The production of ersatz weaponry in these times is well known as such industry was virtually in its infancy and established makers and armourers were quite limited.

It would be a considerable leap to align this sword with any particular unit, as while there are records of a number of organized regiments in the Continental Army, the numbers of independent groups is believed far more substantial and mostly not officially recorded. Naturally in many cases, despite the obviously historically known overt instances of rebellion, much was covert insurgency and purposely unrecorded.

[CutlassCollector]

Hi,

I thought I'd check out the list of British Sword Cutlers in Volume 2 of Swords for Sea service (not just naval).
Its a large list - many entries and even has an Irish section but sorry to say Wyatt does not appear anywhere.

Regards CC

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It appears from Wikepedia that there was a John Wyatt in Birmingham at the zenith of sword making and involved in steam machinery and in particular cotton mill machinery but rubbing shoulders and involved on the periphery with the great sword makers of that time. viz;

Quote" 1738: Lewis Paul and John Wyatt, of Birmingham, patent the roller spinning machine and the flyer-and-bobbin system, for drawing cotton to a more even thickness, using two sets of rollers that travel at different speeds. This principle later becomes the basis of Richard Arkwright's water frame.

1741: John Wyatt, mechanic and inventor, designs and constructs a cart-weighing machine, later referred to as a compound lever weighing machine; the design works by way of levers that hold in place a platform, no matter where the weight is placed the load is transferred to a central lever. Weights attached to that lever then help in obtaining a reading of accurate weight. The simplicity, efficiency and accuracy of the weighing machine proves extremely popular across England, subsequently weighing errors are reduced to approximately one pound per ton, this remains a high standard of measurement into the mid-19th century." Unquote. So although I am unable to tie him down to sword blades it could be that he became involved ...or it is purely speculation...

[Jim McDougall]

I would like to commend Will M on his tenacity in researching this sword, and staying with it, despite the volume of responses, observations and views tendered by contributors in an imoressive volume of venues.
His first queries (found thus far) began in Feb. 2002 on sfi forum; there a very spirited discussion compiled much data similar to what we added here.

It seems the quest went dormant until in Feb 2015, when again it appeared on SFi; My Armoury and in March Journal of the American Revolution.
Then twice in our venue in 2016.

It seems that considerable information was expounded in all these venues over the past 14 years, and here in the last 5 months.

What I would note is that it would be most helpful when posting a query, to add some of the data thus far acquired if not a background of previous research already accomplished rather than posing it as a new query.
It would reduce a lot of unnecessary searching by participating members as well as sharing information already benchmarked for those of us trying to learn on these weapons.

I would point out that apparently it was discovered at some point in the research of Will, that a silversmith named Wyatt was active in the Philadelphia area 1797-98. I do not have the Bezdek reference but it seems one note suggests a Joseph Wyatt.

Peterson, in his silver hilted swords reference notes an index of silversmiths who MOUNTED SWORDS. I do not have the list, but this would suggest that a silversmith would indeed have mounted swords, so a swordsmith listing for a WYATT would not be necessary.
The references for British sword or silver smiths I do not believe include those in the colonies.


Just wanted to place this query and discussion in perspective, and as noted before, still glad to see it revived, just would have liked more extant data already discussed available.

[Will M]

Jim the photos do not show the leather grip where the seam joins, shrunk back a bit and the leather is old, dry, hard and does not appear to be a replacement. Scabbard leather is original, shrunk and brittle. I'll post photos to show this soon.

[Will M]

Shows leather shrinking and old black finish worn off and encrusting the grip wires. Leather is not completely hard as one would expect if over 200 years old.
Always good to take a second, third look at things as I now see the grip covering not to be original but has age.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Will,
As I mentioned, I am very glad you posted this sword here, and as noted by Fernando a number of times. Clearly as I noted, you have been at this for a very long time (2002) and through many venues. What I was suggesting was that there was considerable observation and data imparted in many of the extracurricular discussions which may have been keenly pertinent here.

It seems clear that this sword is comprised of British sword components of c. 1750s-70s, and does seem refurbished probably sometime thereafter. I would presume the 'A57' markings likely are from British protocols, but of course have remained on the hilt and scabbard throat .

It seems apparant that the leather grips and scabbard were added, quite likely during the refurbishing of this sword. The blade was probably acquired and used in this assembly as well. It has been noted throughout most of the discussions that have transpired that this blade is of a continental European form with the distinctive clipped point. Blades were of course heavily trafficked into the colonies prior to the Revolution during the conflicts between the British and French, and certainly post Revolution as well.
It is known that British makers and suppliers still were sources for many swords even into the War of 1812 period.

While America had gained its autonomy politically, it remained in large degree British culturally as our own distinctive culture evolved.
This included the development of our armed forces, and the evolution of local and independant militia and guard groups. I would say that it is quite feasible for weapons such as this to have been fabricated ersatz for such local entities in the post Revolution years and likely early years of the 1800s.
That silversmiths furbished swords is well established, and likely they were not ALL silvered. On that note, I am wondering if this hilt shows evidence of ever having been silvered. One angle seems to show an unusual gleam for metal of this age.

Excellent detail Ibrahiim on the Wyatt silversmiths, and may well apply to what is noted on the activities and possibiity of even these British artisans having connections to this blade. The only deference I would have is the placement of the name on the blade contrary to the British convention of placing it on the spine of the blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Will, we crossed posts, I just saw the pics, thank you.
Indeed, the leather seems not as old, but hard to say when replaced, was it in the original reassembly of these components or much later?

[Will M]

Leather scabbard is original and once had a metal drag.

[M ELEY]

Could Wyatt be the merchant that sold the sword? Many guns of the period were marked not by the maker, but by the Birmingham merchants that sold the goods to the clientele. Perhaps a search of merchants for the time period might yield something?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Could Wyatt be the merchant that sold the sword? Many guns of the period were marked not by the maker, but by the Birmingham merchants that sold the goods to the clientele. Perhaps a search of merchants for the time period might yield something?

Well made point Mark. In many cases not only in England, but Germany and others, blades were indeed marked by retailers or 'sword slippers', who acquired the blades and components from suppliers. In England for example, was the well known J J Runkel, whose name appeared on so many swords he was long thought to be a maker. He simply imported blades from his contacts in Germany, as was a common practice there over the years.
In Germany, P. Knecht was a merchandiser of swords, not a maker, but his name is profusely seen on blades.

I think C.C. suggested "Swords for Sea Service".....perhaps something there or in Southwick? I do not have these with me presently as the bookmobile is on the move and weight & balance did not permit as many books as I would like.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In Germany, P. Knecht was a merchandiser of swords, not a maker, but his name is profusely seen on blades.

Peter Knecht was a "Schwertfeger" (there is no translation for this term).

The job of a "Schwertfeger" (direct translated = Swordcleaner) is to polish the surface, put blade and handle together and fit the blade into the scabbard. In most cases the "Schwertfeger" also sell the finished sword and often was more famous and earned much more money than the blacksmith itself. He was a merchandiser and artisan in one.


Roland

[Hotspur]

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...nfo&highlight=

His first queries (found thus far) began in Feb. 2002 on sfi forum; there a very spirited discussion compiled much data similar to what we added here.

Do you have a link to the 2002 thread?

Cheers

GC

[Jim McDougall]

Roland, thank you so much for the proper explanation and perfectly explained description of the activity of Knecht. I believe that those very circumstances were much more common virtually in all countries with those assembling swords and those smiths who provided them. As American colonists were not only British, but European as well, these situations certainly prevailed here.

There fore Mark's suggestion of searching merchants records is well placed and perhaps why the name Wyatt is not found in makers lists, but probably in the kind of circumstances shown by Ibrahiim's pertinent entry.

Glen, I was hoping you might enter in here, as when it comes to swords in these fields, your knowledge and expertise are well known in these forums.
Thank you for linking the 2002 discussions. I am always happy to see old threads revived and 'cold cases' revisited, as often new evidence and examples can be brought together with the older material.

[Hotspur]

Glen, I was hoping you might enter in here, as when it comes to swords in these fields, your knowledge and expertise are well known in these forums. Thank you for linking the 2002 discussions. I am always happy to see old threads revived and 'cold cases' revisited, as often new evidence and examples can be brought together with the older material.

The thread I linked is the 2015 thread. As far as I know, there was no thread of Will's from 2002. Many of us have been around since then but Will introduced the sword last year (afaik).

Cheers

GC