First Post - Identification Assistance Much Appreciated

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thanks for the info Alan, David and Sajen.

If one were to be conservative, how old would a blade like this be?

Cheers.

That's always a very difficult question, especially with this type of keris because it has very very stylistic indicators. Your keris does seem to present itself as being very old just from the nature of the erosion on the edges and tip. If it were to be a keris that was actually made by the legendary Empu Nyai Mbok Sombro it would date back to the 13th century Pajajaran kingdom of West Jawa. But the name Keris Sombro has become a style rather than an attribution and there is no real way to determine if this keris was an origin Sombro keris. I would say that it is certainly very old and if you want to be conservative you might say 15th century? Of course the dress in much, much newer.

[oariff]

Originally Posted by David

That's always a very difficult question, especially with this type of keris because it has very very stylistic indicators. Your keris does seem to present itself as being very old just from the nature of the erosion on the edges and tip. If it were to be a keris that was actually made by the legendary Empu Nyai Mbok Sombro it would date back to the 13th century Pajajaran kingdom of West Jawa. But the name Keris Sombro has become a style rather than an attribution and there is no real way to determine if this keris was an origin Sombro keris. I would say that it is certainly very old and if you want to be conservative you might say 15th century? Of course the dress in much, much newer.

Thanks David. Just wondering - Lets say it was Mbok's keris. Taking into consideration her life span, tools, materials etc, how many of these sombro"s would she have produced in her Empu journey.

Would it perhaps be better for me to display this sombro without the hilt and sheath? or will that be considered to be against keris protocol?

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thanks David. Just wondering - Lets say it was Mbok's keris. Taking into consideration her life span, tools, materials etc, how many of these sombro"s would she have produced in her Empu journey.

Would it perhaps be better for me to display this sombro without the hilt and sheath? or will that be considered to be against keris protocol?

Nyai Mbok would be an honorific meaning a senior/elder woman/mother, not her actual name. The question of how many of these keris could have been made in Empu Sombro's lifetime is one i am afraid i could not answer. The stories about her say that she carried these keris threaded on a string to market or around the area to sell them, so that would imply that she had many to sell at a time, and these are rather simply constructed keris that probably did not take a great deal of time to forge. So i suppose she could have sold hundreds of these keris in her lifetime. But who knows. These many stories and legends about her, the most fantastic being that she quenched her blades with her labia. Image doing that hundreds of times! When we deal with stories this old it is impossible to verify much. This is why we say that keris of this form are called Keris Sombro, though that doesn't necessarily mean they were all (if any) actually created by the legendary female Empu.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by oariff

Would it perhaps be better for me to display this sombro without the hilt and sheath? or will that be considered to be against keris protocol?

The one I've shown I display without scabbard and handle, I have another one which has scabbard and handle. I think it's your choice!

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The one I've shown I display without scabbard and handle, I have another one which has scabbard and handle. I think it's your choice!

Regards,
Detlef

My personal feeling about keris is that they should always be kept in their sheath when not being viewed. Many collectors wrap their keris in plastic so as not to have the metal in constant contact with the wood, but my understanding is that the sheath is the home for the wilah and that there is also a spiritual masculine/feminine, lingam/yoni kind of relationship here an that the sheath protects the spirit of the keris. But for a collector outside of the culture these aspects may be less important. So yes, as Detlef says, it is the choice of the collector.

[oariff]

Originally Posted by David

My personal feeling about keris is that they should always be kept in their sheath when not being viewed. Many collectors wrap their keris in plastic so as not to have the metal in constant contact with the wood, but my understanding is that the sheath is the home for the wilah and that there is also a spiritual masculine/feminine, lingam/yoni kind of relationship here an that the sheath protects the spirit of the keris. But for a collector outside of the culture these aspects may be less important. So yes, as Detlef says, it is the choice of the collector.

Thanks David and Sajen.

What do you think of this Keris Sajen / Majapahit. Old?

Another question - in terms of timeline, would it be sombro first or Sajen first?

Cheers.

[David]

Originally Posted by oariff

Thanks David and Sajen.

What do you think of this Keris Sajen / Majapahit. Old?

Another question - in terms of timeline, would it be sombro first or Sajen first?

Cheers.

Yes, this does appear to be a legitimately old keris sajen, but i don't really find it possible to get too exacting with ages on these since the form does not change much over the centuries. When more modern features are added to a sajen keris it becomes easier to classify it as a later variety, but the basic forms were also still be made later on.
I believe Empu Sombro was supposed to have lived during the middle Pajajaran in the 13th century. The date generally given for the beginning of the Mojopahit period is 1293, the very end of the 13th century. Keris Sajen are often called Keris Majapahit due to the belief that they came about during the Mojopahit era, but some seem to believe the form may have developed earlier. So that would make them somewhat contemporary to each other. That said, i have also see accounts that place Empu Sombro in the 10th century. So i'm not sure how much accuracy in these datings there actually is. Let's just say that both these forms seem to have come about in the early years of keris development.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, a sajen, no trace of Sombro in it.

Yes, old, but after the common use & understanding of the waved keris as a societal icon, so after the spread into general society of the waved keris, & that means after Islam as societal influence, possibly after Islamic dominance of Javanese society.

Ball park guess, after 1600.