Jamdhar Katari?

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys,

I've got this dagger a while ago from epray.. It has a stamp on the hilt that says "Afghanistan" (mazar sharif?) and on the ricasso it says Sahat/Sahet AbdulWahed 1132. Would appreciate more opinion about it... I've seen similar here on the forum and on artzi's website. But overall info on this dagger type was low :-/

Regards,

Abdullatif

[Lew]

I had one of these a few years back. They are status symbols similar to Yemeni jambiyas.

[Jim McDougall]

Abdullatif, while this is clearly a modern example, it is of a unique and distinct form which is known as a 'katara' if memory serves, and of a fascinating tribal people known as the Kalash. Though the history of these people is complex, they are related to the Kafirs of Kafiristan (now Nuristan) adjacent to and part of Afghanistan. The Kalash however fled Nuristan upon the invasion of Afghan Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, I think in the 1880s.
The Kalash are of the Chitral regions of Pakistan near Khyber province and are a polytheistic and uniquely traditional tribal people with a facinating history. As the Kafirs they are represented in Kiplings "Man Who Would be King", and I can recall speaking with one of the tribal elders upon research I was doing on this tribe some years ago. Apparantly one of thier rituals involves dancing with a particular form of long handled axe as one of the icons and I was working with someone in Germany seeking one of these.

I was able to see several examples of these of some age, which look just like this, and surprisingly found that somehow quite a number of these had been turning up in Nepal.

The Afghan crest is of course seen on yours represented with the Mosque of Mazir i Sharif.

All the best,
Jim

[AJ1356]

The Mosque in the Afghan crest is pretty much a made believe mosque, I don't believe it was never to resemble a certain mosque in Afghanistan. The crest on this knife resembles the crest Afghanistan had towards the late 80's ( end of communist era ). The text reads Saakht e Abdul Waadid ساخت عبدالواحد which means made by Abdul Waahid. Afghanistan was not known as Afghanisan in 1132 (Solar, Lunar or Julian) no matter how one would want to twist the history, that is just a number not a year.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

The Mosque in the Afghan crest is pretty much a made believe mosque, I don't believe it was never to resemble a certain mosque in Afghanistan. The crest on this knife resembles the crest Afghanistan had towards the late 80's ( end of communist era ). The text reads Saakht e Abdul Waadid ساخت عبدالواحد which means made by Abdul Waahid. Afghanistan was not known as Afghanisan in 1132 (Solar, Lunar or Julian) no matter how one would want to twist the history, that is just a number not a year.

Thats exactly what I thought. The knife is way newer then the date so could it be just a number that the maker added? or probably to give it more value.

[AJ1356]

I seriousely doubt it is a number the maker gave, somewhat unusual. My money would be on trying to get more money out of it, however with the newer seal it does not make much sense. But then again the maker probably did not think that far ahead.

Correction on the earlier post, the so called mosque in the seal in not a mosque at all, I remembered it at the gym. It is actually a Mehraab and Munbar, let's call it the alter area of a mosque, for those who are not familiar with inside of the mosques.

[Lew]

Here is the link to the one I posted some years back.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...Jamdhar+Katari

[Jim McDougall]

While this dagger is clearly a quite modern piece, as always I still look to learn on the history of the weapon it is intended to replicate and what significance there might be to the markings or motif. Although my fascination with this pursuit is not often particularly widely shared, I follow this course and write for those who might be.

As I have mentioned, the type of dagger is from the Kafir heritage regions now Nuristan which was invaded by Amir Abdur Rahman Khan of Afghanistan in the 19th century. The Kafirs who refused to subjugate to the Amir and accept Islam fled into the Chitral regions, and those remaining in then Kafiristan became essentially 'Afghan' or under that suzerainty.

The poorly executed scribed markings represent the emblem of Afghanistan in modern times, but the image of the mosque derives from the reign of Abdur Rahman Khan (r.1880-1901). We have discovered that the markings found on a number of swords attributed to the period of his rule are very much the same as those found on coinage issued by his reign, in particular the mosque depicted, which indeed in most cases most resembles a mehraab.

In my opinion, the reason the famed mosque at Mazir i Sharif seems at least temporally depicted on the coinage and in the stamps on blades presumed to be of the royal armoury located there is because this was in effect the provincial capital of Afghanistan . Also, the importance of this mosque in the Faith as the Holy Shrine is significantly placed, and seems to suggest this being the most likely represented. It is situated far in the north nearly at the Uzbekistan border, and was unaffected during any of the Anglo-Afghan wars, and near the ancient city of Balkh. It was the refuge for Emir Sher Ali and significant in the Barakzai Dynasty of which Emir Abdur Rahman Khan was a key ruler.
Abdur Rahman Khan was the first to create what was to became the actual state of Afghanistan, and negotiated with the British which resulted in protection and subsidies (Treaty of Gandamak). It was during these times that the adoption of heraldic style devices seem to have come from the British association. As far as I have found the first coins bearing the stylized mosque/mehraab occur in 1892. Subsequent issues continued with more detail added to resemble minarets and military arms and flags, all had a wreath surround and issues by his son Habibullah continued.

The earliest swords I have seen with the deep stamp carrying this same image seem to concur with the dates of these coins issuance.

Regarding the number/date inscribed 1132, may represent 1132 AH (1720CE). The important Islamic scholar and spiritual guide Alawi al Haddad (1634-1132AH) died that year. He was a poet and author of devotional songs who was from Hadhramawt, but of course his teachings were widely known and important in Islamic scholarship.

Interestingly during his reign Abdur Rahman Khan's flag was a black flag without any type of devices or writing. His son added the symbolic emblem seen on the coinage , which later became the emblem of Afghanistan.

Regardless of the nature of this modern dagger, these are the historic elements associated with it as far as I can find.

[Jim McDougall]

Hits to 195 today It makes me glad to see viewers reading this material and very much worthwhile writing. Thank you very much readers

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Jim, thanks alot for the informative reply. To me, your comments are a treasure.

While I cannot say much about the history, nor do I doubt it, the only thing am willing to dispute is the connection to the death of a scholar. I simply think this dagger is a modern piece used like any modern jambiya is used, the maker wanted to add more attractiveness to it so he added the date. Its the most plausible conclusion I think.

None the less, this dagger is of an interesting time to me.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Jim, thanks alot for the informative reply. To me, your comments are a treasure.

While I cannot say much about the history, nor do I doubt it, the only thing am willing to dispute is the connection to the death of a scholar. I simply think this dagger is a modern piece used like any modern jambiya is used, the maker wanted to add more attractiveness to it so he added the date. Its the most plausible conclusion I think.

None the less, this dagger is of an interesting time to me.

Thank you for the kind words Abdullatif, much appreciated. Actually when I see dates specifically on a weapon, particularly on a more modern version of the type or on a date shown which in out of conjunction with the period of the weapon, I look for clues of significant events in that year.
Interestingly on the dates shown on many European swords, these are not actual dates but typically encrypted numbers with magical significance, or sometimes even Bible passages. For example I have seen many swords of 17th and even 18th century with 1414 or 1441 on them. These are not dates obviously but numbers with magical meaning in combination.

In Islamic swords, the 'bedouh' is a square comprised of numbers carrying these talismanic properties as well, and numerology is as I understand often found in these kinds of use.

The combination 1132 as a date is simply speculation, and of course it would be tenuous at best to presume connection, though the remote possibility exists, so I mentioned this notation.

To me the weapons are icons of history, and even modern examples reflect depictions or recollections of the types and events around thier influencing counterparts. I enjoyed learning more on this one and really do thank you for sharing it, it was a fun trip down memory lane too!

All the very best,
Jim

[DaveA]

I purchased this jamdhar katari not too long ago from another forumite. A fascinating piece. I am especially happy to read Lew's posts for background! The history of that area is fascinating. Thanks Lew.

- Dave A.

[Stan S.]

Beautiful!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by DaveA

I purchased this jamdhar katari not too long ago from another forumite. A fascinating piece. I am especially happy to read Lew's posts for background! The history of that area is fascinating. Thanks Lew.

- Dave A.

Thank you for posting this Dave!!! I will add this to my notes which have been greatly augmented by Lew's posts as well !!!!

[Rick]

Would it appear totally jaded of me to suggest that these examples shown are meant for others to purchase; those who chose employment that is 'not just a career; but an adventure' ?

Regardless of nation, of course; so many have passed through since Sikander.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rick

Would it appear totally jaded of me to suggest that these examples shown are meant for others to purchase; those who chose employment that is 'not just a career; but an adventure' ?

Regardless of nation, of course; so many have passed through since Sikander.

The "Great Game" Rick!!!

[DaveA]

Rick,

Regardless of intent behind their manufacture, these are fine pieces of craft, representative of the style, from a far-flung people in a rarely visited part of the world. I for one am very happy to have this item in my collection and to have opened my eyes to a culture I never knew before now.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Rick,

Regardless of intent behind their manufacture, these are fine pieces of craft, representative of the style, from a far-flung people in a rarely visited part of the world. I for one am very happy to have this item in my collection and to have opened my eyes to a culture I never knew before now.

My exact feeling. Its a nice item, I usually trade away items that are "dubious" but I like this one :P

[Rick]

There can be charm in village made stuff .

An example from a hundred years earlier .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Rick,

Regardless of intent behind their manufacture, these are fine pieces of craft, representative of the style, from a far-flung people in a rarely visited part of the world. I for one am very happy to have this item in my collection and to have opened my eyes to a culture I never knew before now.

Well said. I am curious though, which culture are you referring to?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by DaveA

I purchased this jamdhar katari not too long ago from another forumite. A fascinating piece. I am especially happy to read Lew's posts for background! The history of that area is fascinating. Thanks Lew.

- Dave A.

Salaams Dave... Can you direct me to the history you speak of having been sent by Lew as I have looked everywhere but just cannot track it?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well said. I am curious though, which culture are you referring to?

The Kafirs.

After your post Jim will have to learn more about the Kalash! I would also like to better understand the relationship to the chilanum, which is cast as one piece.

Here is information I have gathered from a variety of sources about the this weapon and the Kafirs:

There is much debate about the origin of the name and in fact which name is “correct” (jamadhar, jandad, jamdhar, jumdud). The spelling jamdhar seems to indicate Hindi origin yet “Jamdar” may also be a Persian word with the suggested etymology of janb-dar, that is, 'flank render.'

The Kafirs are an ethnic group located in the southern part of the Hindu Kush valleys, just across the border from Chitral, Pakistan. Today, this is a region of Afghanistan known historically as Kafiristan and today as Nurestan (Nuristan, Nooristan).

The Kafirs are thought to be descendants of an old Indian population that used to occupy the region and did not convert to Islam with the rest of the population. They sometimes claim to be descended from Alexander the Great who passed through the area; he only subdued the Kafirs after a great struggle. Their physical appearance is quite distinct from the Pashtun tribes in Afghanistan.

Until they were forcefully converted to Islam around 1895 by Emir Abdur Rahman Khan, the people of the region practiced an ancient Indo-Iranian polytheistic religion. Non-Muslim practices endure today as folk customs. The word "Kafir" is derived from the ancient Sanskrit name of the region that included historic Kafiristan. This may in turn relate to the Arabic word "Kufr", which means not only to disbelieve but also to blaspheme. Its derivative "Kafir" means one who commits blasphemy. Today, the people are known as Nuristanis to outsiders although they do not have a formal tribal structure such as the Pashtun's. Instead, they designate themselves by the names of the local regions where they live.

- Dave A.

[Jim McDougall]

I will say that I am greatly encouraged by Daves notes here, and that he has clearly used the search features here to obtain further detail on this weapon and the example he posted of his own. Most pleasing is that he has brought up the Kalash people of Chitral and as noted, wishes to learn more on this intriguing tribal people.

The reason I did not bring up the Kalash specifically in discussing Abdullatif's weapon, the subject of the thread, is because with the Afghan motif on the weapon it seemed more properly attributed to Nuristan, which as noted in my earlier post would suggest the regions of the Kafir designated denomination. Naturally the weapon form itself certainly would have diffused to the Chitral regions with the assimilation of the Kafirs back into thier ancestral Kalash tribes.
As I had mentioned in posts about two years ago, I had the pleasure of communicating with a tribal member of the Kalash situated here in the U.S. and active in preserving their tribal heritage. He would be most delighted to see this interest. I also had visited with a collector in Germany most interested in the Kalash, and who had gathered a good number of examples of these jamadhar katari's. Interestingly, many of these he had obtained in trips to Nepal. In E.Jaiwent Paul's "Arms and Armour: Traditional Wapons of India" (New Delhi, 1970, p.70) it is noted that these daggers are also attributed to regions in Nepal. We may presume that thier diffusion westward was via trade routes.

The association of these daggers to the chilanum is of course mostly of diffusional influence, and many forms of daggers and knives of India are produced in the manner of single piece forging, such as the bichwa along with the katar . The terminology, as indicated in the 1886 volume on Hobson Jobson on colloquial Anglo-Indian terms and phrases seems to support the Hindu origins of the 'jamadhar' term. As Pant explains (p.162-63) and as cited in the work of the British officer J. Shakespear, the term 'jam', yama=death; dhar =tooth, which are Hindi words. Inscriptions in Hindu using the phrase 'tooth of the god of death' in the term jamadhar support this, while there are of course Arabic and Persian words which are compellingly close in similarity. In Hindi, the term katar may be applied with 'to cut' or to 'knife' but there are 'to stab' or 'to pierce' suggestions.
Transliteration, semantics and colloquial expressions are the bane of the ethnographic weapons researcher, and many assumptions and misleading circumstances have led to what we know as 'collectors terms'. Trying to establish distinct identification and chronology of these weapons by term or etymology in contemporary narratives or colonial narratives can be a slippery slope at best. It is best to carefully qualify references and note accordingly in description.

[Ian]

Another one of these just sold on eBay. Unusual acid etched blade design. Possibly made by the same person as the one shown by DaveA earlier in thread.

Measures 12.25 inches (31 cm) out of sheath.

Ian

[BANDOOK]

Measures: 42.5 cm long (out of sheath).

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

Measures: 42.5 cm long (out of sheath).

[Ian]

Bandook:

There seems to be remnants of an acid etch on your blade also.

42.5 cm--is that figure correct?

Ian

[BANDOOK]

YES IAN THE MEASUREMENT IS CORRECT,THANKS