Virginia Manufactory Swords

Hotspur · 5th July 2009, 10:04 PM

Jim thought others here might enjoy a paralell discusion regarding the Virginia Manufactory swords. I had watched this one move on the street with a good bit of interest but was unable to commit more funds to one such at this time.

These are not extremely rare but they don't come up for sale much these days. However, it seems the times have brought more out of the shadows. In some recent poking around I just came across another multi purpose 1836 gazetteer for my google shelf. Page 83 for militia stores and more. Plonk goes that one and not just for arms information.

There are a couple of good online articles that may be of interest as well. One from the late David Radcliffe's notes, entitled Four Big Black Swords.
http://www.armscollectors.com/mgs/fo...ack_swords.htm

Along with Bezdek's 1812 book, there is also another link that will come up in searches. This one from the American Society of Arms Collectors.
http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...swordtest2.htm

BElow are some pictures of a sword that recently passed through the market with what was a good price in this day and age.

Cheers

Hotspur; one might regard Starr and Rose as other names of the day

Hotspur · 5th July 2009, 10:17 PM

Some others I have harvested

Jim McDougall · 7th July 2009, 05:50 AM

Thank you so much Glen! Just saw this fantastic post on these truly important sabres, which were key in early American military swords, and gained an almost rebirth during the Civil War.
It has been many years since researching these, and it seems there were first and second models.
The Starr and Rose swords as mentioned, were also key contracts.
I believe the Starr model 1812 was one commonly used by American dragoons pre- M1833 Ames, and I wonder how long thier use continued.

It is great to see these American swords brought up, and wish I had my issues of Man at Arms handy...there have been some great articles in those pages on many of these swords.

As always, looking forward to observations and examples out there!!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 7th July 2009, 09:15 AM

Not much to add, other than that I've always loved these swords. They seemed to span the past century, with their slotted guards, while representing the swords that were to come. As already stated, many were used in both the Mexican War and during the Civil War. A few years back, I saw one of these in a CW catalog with a Tenn regiment etched on the side. So much history in one package. I also think it is a testiment to the strength and fortitude of the state of Virginia that they had started their own arms making at such an early period. On a side-note, just read a great article on the Virginia State Navy from the Rev War period (yep...they even created their own in that department as well). Mentions the use of 2 pound cannon balls for their swivel guns. Be pretty gruesome to get hit with one of those.
Anyway, thank you, Glen, for presenting this sword here.

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2009, 07:29 PM

I note that this thread has been neglected, which I surely would like to rectify as Glen has been kind enough to initiate it here. I think these early American contract and issue sabres are among the most fascinating examples as they are of course relatively rare and information is not readily available.
I'd like to thank Glen again for providing these great links, which are tremendously helpful as resources for learning more on them.

While I continue to hope that more examples will appear here, one thing that seems significant is the huge blades on these original Virginia Manufactory examples....some 40.5" long!! It would seem that most (perhaps all?) of these were shortened to 35" in the Civil War, and it would be good to know if original examples in that form still exist.

It is interesting to know that many of the swordsmiths in the Manufactory were apparantly German smiths and perhaps other immigrants of the same occupation. It almost seems as if this developed into a sort of American version of the Hounslow factories, in analogy at least.

Thank you for responding Mark, and you always have something to add!!!
no matter how small you think it is, your interesting notes and comments always add wonderful dimension to the discussion at hand.....and whassup with two pound cannon balls!!! must have been a heck of a swivel gun!
Well said on Virginia, very independant and proud state.

All best regards,
Jim

5th July 2009, 10:04 PM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Virginia Manufactory Swords Jim thought others here might enjoy a paralell discusion regarding the Virginia Manufactory swords. I had watched this one move on the street with a good bit of interest but was unable to commit more funds to one such at this time. These are not extremely rare but they don't come up for sale much these days. However, it seems the times have brought more out of the shadows. In some recent poking around I just came across another multi purpose 1836 gazetteer for my google shelf. Page 83 for militia stores and more. Plonk goes that one and not just for arms information. There are a couple of good online articles that may be of interest as well. One from the late David Radcliffe's notes, entitled Four Big Black Swords. http://www.armscollectors.com/mgs/fo...ack_swords.htm Along with Bezdek's 1812 book, there is also another link that will come up in searches. This one from the American Society of Arms Collectors. http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...swordtest2.htm BElow are some pictures of a sword that recently passed through the market with what was a good price in this day and age. Cheers Hotspur; one might regard Starr and Rose as other names of the day Attached Images

5th July 2009, 10:17 PM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Some others I have harvested Attached Images

7th July 2009, 05:50 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thank you so much Glen! Just saw this fantastic post on these truly important sabres, which were key in early American military swords, and gained an almost rebirth during the Civil War. It has been many years since researching these, and it seems there were first and second models. The Starr and Rose swords as mentioned, were also key contracts. I believe the Starr model 1812 was one commonly used by American dragoons pre- M1833 Ames, and I wonder how long thier use continued. It is great to see these American swords brought up, and wish I had my issues of Man at Arms handy...there have been some great articles in those pages on many of these swords. As always, looking forward to observations and examples out there!! All the best, Jim

7th July 2009, 09:15 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Not much to add, other than that I've always loved these swords. They seemed to span the past century, with their slotted guards, while representing the swords that were to come. As already stated, many were used in both the Mexican War and during the Civil War. A few years back, I saw one of these in a CW catalog with a Tenn regiment etched on the side. So much history in one package. I also think it is a testiment to the strength and fortitude of the state of Virginia that they had started their own arms making at such an early period. On a side-note, just read a great article on the Virginia State Navy from the Rev War period (yep...they even created their own in that department as well). Mentions the use of 2 pound cannon balls for their swivel guns. Be pretty gruesome to get hit with one of those. Anyway, thank you, Glen, for presenting this sword here.

12th July 2009, 07:29 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	I note that this thread has been neglected, which I surely would like to rectify as Glen has been kind enough to initiate it here. I think these early American contract and issue sabres are among the most fascinating examples as they are of course relatively rare and information is not readily available. I'd like to thank Glen again for providing these great links, which are tremendously helpful as resources for learning more on them. While I continue to hope that more examples will appear here, one thing that seems significant is the huge blades on these original Virginia Manufactory examples....some 40.5" long!! It would seem that most (perhaps all?) of these were shortened to 35" in the Civil War, and it would be good to know if original examples in that form still exist. It is interesting to know that many of the swordsmiths in the Manufactory were apparantly German smiths and perhaps other immigrants of the same occupation. It almost seems as if this developed into a sort of American version of the Hounslow factories, in analogy at least. Thank you for responding Mark, and you always have something to add!!! no matter how small you think it is, your interesting notes and comments always add wonderful dimension to the discussion at hand.....and whassup with two pound cannon balls!!! must have been a heck of a swivel gun! Well said on Virginia, very independant and proud state. All best regards, Jim