Wierd Aluminium Hilted Sabre. Any Info?

A.alnakkas · 2nd October 2012, 08:58 PM

Hey guys,

What is this sword? the blade looks like a recycled European one. Its decent it is flexible and springs back straight to its normal shape, but alittle tired and needs cleaning.

No idea wherre it is from so would love some info.

laEspadaAncha · 2nd October 2012, 09:15 PM

The hilt and in particular the pommel recall a flyssa to me - Maghreb, maybe Kabyle or an overlapping area of Algeria or Eastern Morocco?

I know the langlet, knucklebow, and use of aluminum are hardly typical, but what about this sword is typical? The scabbard definitely looks African IMO.

A.alnakkas · 2nd October 2012, 09:39 PM

Hey mate,

The scabbard does look African yeah. I doubt its Moroccan, didnt they use leather on wood for their scabbards? this is a full leather scabbard.

Dom · 2nd October 2012, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The scabbard does look African yeah. I doubt its Moroccan, didnt they use leather on wood for their scabbards? this is a full leather scabbard.

My Bro. your doubts are justified

either from Morocco, or Kabylia, I never saw some sword looks like this one

employs aluminum would think, recycling of ?? that's the question pending

à +

Dom

VANDOO · 2nd October 2012, 10:44 PM

IT DON'T LOOK LIKE MUCH TODAY BUT DURING THE TIME OF NAPOLEAN THAT HANDLE WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE PRECIOUS THAN A SOLID GOLD ONE.

PROBABLY NOT THAT OLD LIKELY OF WW2 VINTAGE BUT PERHAPS SOME ONE IN AFRICA STILL THOUGHT IT A PRESTIGEOUS METAL AS IT WAS LIKELY RARE IN PARTS OF AFRICA EVEN THEN. DOES THE HANDLE APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN CAST OR JUST PIECED TOGETHER FROM BITS OF SOMETHING ELSE? VERY INTERESTING

spiral · 2nd October 2012, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

DOES THE HANDLE APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN CAST OR JUST PIECED TOGETHER FROM BITS OF SOMETHING ELSE? VERY INTERESTING

The grip is definaly cast....

Whether Aluminium, zinc or pot metal is hard to say, without bieng in hand or weighing the balance....

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2012, 12:40 AM

Ar first glance this seemed Bedouin, but then I recalled images of these kinds of hilts, typically cast brass, on sabres in use in West Africa. If I recall correctly one was held by a warrior in I believe Sierra Leone involved in insurgence in those regions in 1980s (somewhere there is a photo from a magazine cover).
Unsure of what this metal is but looks aluminum alloy, the blade is probably surplus military from colonial sources in French regions.

Edster · 3rd October 2012, 03:41 AM

I have a single edge Rashayda sword with a cast one-piece grip that looks to be aluminum. Has a similar guard, but isn't of any "ethnic" design. Blade is sort of thick and not a fine steel. Similar scabbard. Got in Kassala.

colin henshaw · 3rd October 2012, 09:48 AM

Aluminium was commonly used in the manufacture of native objects in East Africa during the first half of the 20th century (from melted down European pots & pans). This looks like a copy of one of those Zanzibar/Swahili Coast nimcha-type swords, or could be derived from a European military sabre ? The scabbard lining seems to be made of hardboard (used for making partitions etc.)

A.alnakkas · 3rd October 2012, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

I have a single edge Rashayda sword with a cast one-piece grip that looks to be aluminum. Has a similar guard, but isn't of any "ethnic" design. Blade is sort of thick and not a fine steel. Similar scabbard. Got in Kassala.

Edster, Thanks! Do you mind showing photos of the "Rashayda" sword? my guess is that by Rashayda, you speak of the Arab tribe in Sudan, correct?

Jim and Vandoo, thanks! I dont think the hilt is cast all together in one piece, it seems that it is made of different pieces of the same alloy, I can see some welding and will get some zooms tommorow morning if possible.

Thanks everyone for the info!

A.alnakkas · 3rd October 2012, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Aluminium was commonly used in the manufacture of native objects in East Africa during the first half of the 20th century (from melted down European pots & pans). This looks like a copy of one of those Zanzibar/Swahili Coast nimcha-type swords, or could be derived from a European military sabre ? The scabbard lining seems to be made of hardboard (used for making partitions etc.)

You are right about the scabbard. I dont think the hilt is a copy of a nimcha, maybe a European hilt.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd October 2012, 07:05 PM

Salaams all ~ There are a lot of aluminium handled Nimcha in both Yemen and Oman. They seem to be melted down from old pots. The scabbard marks on the project item appear to be African Yemeni or even Omani. Melting pans is the sort of thing I imagine itinerant gypsy style groups wandering from village to village where they were involved in tinning and making tools etc. In Oman these tinkers were called Zutoot.

It should be remembered that, here, silver represents the Moon (Gold the Sun) and the cheaper lookalike variants were tin and aluminium and in the case of gold ~ brass. That is why marriage chests (dowry chests are studded with brass studs.To reflect evil.) In terms of the other silvery stuff ~ "liquid moon"~ Mercury ! That was until quite recently (pre circa 1970) often rubbed into babies gums to ward off evil ~

I think these aluminium hilts are ending up in a variety of places including souks like Muscat and Sanaa and being taken as basic swords though not perhaps as weapons... by Bedouin handy to have around as a sort of badge of office and for the occasional dancing pageants, weddings, feasts, meetings of leaders etc etc enacted all over Arabia. The blades are invariably very low quality.

Here's one similar below;

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

TVV · 3rd October 2012, 07:41 PM

Well done Ibrahiim, the example you posted is extremely close. Southern Arab Peninsula then, very interesting.

Regards,
Teodor

A.alnakkas · 3rd October 2012, 08:08 PM

Very interesting Ibrahim. Though I would like to point out that the blade on mine is far from low quality, average at the least. Could it perhaps had a functional purpose aswell? the blade on mine is certainly made to be used and is forged, flexible and have been sharpened before. What about the durability of the hilt material? the hilt is pretty light and comfy.

Edster · 4th October 2012, 02:30 AM

Sorry, I don't have a photo of the Rashayda sword with me, and I'm away from where it is. Will try to get a shot of it within the next 10 days or so. Its very unremarkable.

Ed

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2012, 04:08 AM

Excellent example Ibrahiim!!!
I think this mention of Muscat and San'aa and this remarkably similar example returns to my original thoughts on the Bedouin sabres which have again somewhat similarly shaped hilts sans the knuckleguard. Interestingly there is a certain gestalt here which recalls the Ethiopian gurades in thier reflection of European military sabres with knuckleguard and particularly the large squared langets with rounded corners. I think this would fall well in place with the use of domestic product scrap metal in regions as mentioned by Colin and the occurrence of these kinds of swords in Kassala as described by Ed. All of these points of contact are within the Red Sea trade sphere.

Martin Lubojacky · 4th October 2012, 09:52 AM

Dear Ibrahim, Thank you very much for your matter-of-fact and wholesome remark !

Just for info/pleasure I enclose some other types of handles. Photo was made a few years ago in Sanaa.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th October 2012, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Dear Ibrahim, Thank you very much for your matter-of-fact and wholesome remark !

Just for info/pleasure I enclose some other types of handles. Photo was made a few years ago in Sanaa.

Salaams Martin Lubojacky Yes I have seen your great collection before on another thread ... Saudia, Yemeni and Zanzibari Nimcha ! Very nice.

A.alnakkas Yes I agree the sword is multi functional and could be weilded in a fight but as I say ..."Perhaps" More likely as the badge of office and dance function. The blades are made rather roughly. No quality in my opinion...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th October 2012, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent example Ibrahiim!!!
I think this mention of Muscat and San'aa and this remarkably similar example returns to my original thoughts on the Bedouin sabres which have again somewhat similarly shaped hilts sans the knuckleguard. Interestingly there is a certain gestalt here which recalls the Ethiopian gurades in thier reflection of European military sabres with knuckleguard and particularly the large squared langets with rounded corners. I think this would fall well in place with the use of domestic product scrap metal in regions as mentioned by Colin and the occurrence of these kinds of swords in Kassala as described by Ed. All of these points of contact are within the Red Sea trade sphere.

Salaams Jim, Yes I think they are Bedouin by style though they are the cheap end of what has been a vanishing artefact style.. Whilst they could be used in a fight I think they are badge of office and dancing "props" used at functions, weddings, Eids etc... in part of a tradition going back centuries.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A.alnakkas · 6th October 2012, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, Yes I think they are Bedouin by style though they are the cheap end of what has been a vanishing artefact style.. Whilst they could be used in a fight I think they are badge of office and dancing "props" used at functions, weddings, Eids etc... in part of a tradition going back centuries.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Interesting. I always thought that the badge of office in Oman is the kattara, in Yemen its the jambiya and rarely swords. In KSA and other northern countries like Kuwait and Qatar it was always the badawi style saif. Do you know any specific tribe that uses these crude swords?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th October 2012, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Interesting. I always thought that the badge of office in Oman is the kattara, in Yemen its the jambiya and rarely swords. In KSA and other northern countries like Kuwait and Qatar it was always the badawi style saif. Do you know any specific tribe that uses these crude swords?

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ The badge of office in Oman is the Omani Khanjar. Occasionally curved kattara sword are carried by officials and even Royalty either on special occasions or important meetings. When dancing is required at Eid weddings or other meetings lots of people turn up with dancing swords; Omani Straight flexible Sayfs.

Whilst they all have a badge of office connotation the Khanjar (or Khunjar) is more common and even denotes the head of the family. In addition the camel stick is carried and it too has a badge of office traditional indication to it. The gunbelt and Martini Henry rifle may also be included in this array as a respected group of items all worn to reflect the tradition, bearing and badge of office of the wearer... The Khanjar, however, carries the most importance in this regard.

These crude aluminium hilted swords do seem to appear in tribal bedu groups ~ whereas you probably see a lot of these there are perhaps 5 or 10 in Muscat Souk and a couple dotted about the Oman. Buraimi souk has one...and I have another. A friend arrived from Sharjah souk and apparently there are a lot up there... perhaps 10 or twenty and they are very cheap~ quality wise.

Personally I think they have a place in Arabian Sword styles but more on the fringe and as a handy party tool to have in the advent of an important visitor or for dancing.( and as an ethnographic observation) On the other hand it is possible to fight with them, I suppose, but I have them sidelined as accoutrements of tradition only. In addition they reflect the demise of swords in the region which after all has been ebbing since the invention of gunpowder.

The other Arab weapon hardly ever mentioned is "the spear" which has all but vanished for the same reasons.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

2nd October 2012, 08:58 PM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Wierd Aluminium Hilted Sabre. Any Info? Hey guys, What is this sword? the blade looks like a recycled European one. Its decent it is flexible and springs back straight to its normal shape, but alittle tired and needs cleaning. No idea wherre it is from so would love some info. Attached Images

3rd October 2012, 07:05 PM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all ~ There are a lot of aluminium handled Nimcha in both Yemen and Oman. They seem to be melted down from old pots. The scabbard marks on the project item appear to be African Yemeni or even Omani. Melting pans is the sort of thing I imagine itinerant gypsy style groups wandering from village to village where they were involved in tinning and making tools etc. In Oman these tinkers were called Zutoot. It should be remembered that, here, silver represents the Moon (Gold the Sun) and the cheaper lookalike variants were tin and aluminium and in the case of gold ~ brass. That is why marriage chests (dowry chests are studded with brass studs.To reflect evil.) In terms of the other silvery stuff ~ "liquid moon"~ Mercury ! That was until quite recently (pre circa 1970) often rubbed into babies gums to ward off evil ~ I think these aluminium hilts are ending up in a variety of places including souks like Muscat and Sanaa and being taken as basic swords though not perhaps as weapons... by Bedouin handy to have around as a sort of badge of office and for the occasional dancing pageants, weddings, feasts, meetings of leaders etc etc enacted all over Arabia. The blades are invariably very low quality. Here's one similar below; Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

4th October 2012, 09:52 AM	#17
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Dear Ibrahim, Thank you very much for your matter-of-fact and wholesome remark ! Just for info/pleasure I enclose some other types of handles. Photo was made a few years ago in Sanaa. Attached Images

2nd October 2012, 09:15 PM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	The hilt and in particular the pommel recall a flyssa to me - Maghreb, maybe Kabyle or an overlapping area of Algeria or Eastern Morocco? I know the langlet, knucklebow, and use of aluminum are hardly typical, but what about this sword is typical? The scabbard definitely looks African IMO.

2nd October 2012, 09:39 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey mate, The scabbard does look African yeah. I doubt its Moroccan, didnt they use leather on wood for their scabbards? this is a full leather scabbard.

2nd October 2012, 10:44 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT DON'T LOOK LIKE MUCH TODAY BUT DURING THE TIME OF NAPOLEAN THAT HANDLE WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE PRECIOUS THAN A SOLID GOLD ONE. PROBABLY NOT THAT OLD LIKELY OF WW2 VINTAGE BUT PERHAPS SOME ONE IN AFRICA STILL THOUGHT IT A PRESTIGEOUS METAL AS IT WAS LIKELY RARE IN PARTS OF AFRICA EVEN THEN. DOES THE HANDLE APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN CAST OR JUST PIECED TOGETHER FROM BITS OF SOMETHING ELSE? VERY INTERESTING

3rd October 2012, 12:40 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Ar first glance this seemed Bedouin, but then I recalled images of these kinds of hilts, typically cast brass, on sabres in use in West Africa. If I recall correctly one was held by a warrior in I believe Sierra Leone involved in insurgence in those regions in 1980s (somewhere there is a photo from a magazine cover). Unsure of what this metal is but looks aluminum alloy, the blade is probably surplus military from colonial sources in French regions.

3rd October 2012, 03:41 AM	#8
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	I have a single edge Rashayda sword with a cast one-piece grip that looks to be aluminum. Has a similar guard, but isn't of any "ethnic" design. Blade is sort of thick and not a fine steel. Similar scabbard. Got in Kassala.

3rd October 2012, 09:48 AM	#9
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Aluminium was commonly used in the manufacture of native objects in East Africa during the first half of the 20th century (from melted down European pots & pans). This looks like a copy of one of those Zanzibar/Swahili Coast nimcha-type swords, or could be derived from a European military sabre ? The scabbard lining seems to be made of hardboard (used for making partitions etc.)

3rd October 2012, 07:41 PM	#13
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Well done Ibrahiim, the example you posted is extremely close. Southern Arab Peninsula then, very interesting. Regards, Teodor

3rd October 2012, 08:08 PM	#14
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Very interesting Ibrahim. Though I would like to point out that the blade on mine is far from low quality, average at the least. Could it perhaps had a functional purpose aswell? the blade on mine is certainly made to be used and is forged, flexible and have been sharpened before. What about the durability of the hilt material? the hilt is pretty light and comfy.

4th October 2012, 02:30 AM	#15
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Sorry, I don't have a photo of the Rashayda sword with me, and I'm away from where it is. Will try to get a shot of it within the next 10 days or so. Its very unremarkable. Ed

4th October 2012, 04:08 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Excellent example Ibrahiim!!! I think this mention of Muscat and San'aa and this remarkably similar example returns to my original thoughts on the Bedouin sabres which have again somewhat similarly shaped hilts sans the knuckleguard. Interestingly there is a certain gestalt here which recalls the Ethiopian gurades in thier reflection of European military sabres with knuckleguard and particularly the large squared langets with rounded corners. I think this would fall well in place with the use of domestic product scrap metal in regions as mentioned by Colin and the occurrence of these kinds of swords in Kassala as described by Ed. All of these points of contact are within the Red Sea trade sphere.