Wootz Dagger, Persian?

William Fox · 1st March 2019, 05:25 PM

Hi gents.

Please see some photos of a dagger I purchased recently. It has a green leather scabbard, which is quite worn and so I've given it a bit of light leather oil.

The blade appears to be wootz, quite dark in colour. I would love to know what kind of wootz this is. Can anyone guess the age or region?

The handle appears to be made of bone, or horn, with a thin copper neck.

I would really appreciate any opinions on this dagger.

All the best.

mahratt · 1st March 2019, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Fox

Hi gents.

Please see some photos of a dagger I purchased recently. It has a green leather scabbard, which is quite worn and so I've given it a bit of light leather oil.

The blade appears to be wootz, quite dark in colour. I would love to know what kind of wootz this is. Can anyone guess the age or region?

The handle appears to be made of bone, or horn, with a thin copper neck.

I would really appreciate any opinions on this dagger.

All the best.

The blade can be Persian. Handle, in my opinion, modern work from the horn of a cow.

ariel · 1st March 2019, 09:42 PM

The blade is indeed Persian, it is a classic Khanjar.
I cannot see the handle well, and cannot comment on its age and material. One needs to hold it and often inspect it with a magnifier. It may be a cow horn judging from the white spots, but the tang is peaned, and this is something that is not often seen on contemporary replacements. In any case, handles were made from organic materials , got damaged and replaced. I would put any hesitations about the handle on a back burner.

The wootz... it is fine. You are asking about its name ( variety).
I think we could safely call it Khorasan, but there is a problem: there are more than 30 names for the wootz patterns in different sources, and we have reasonably uniform definition of maybe 5-7 of them. Wootz was made in multiple localities, its pattern depended in large measure on the forging technique of the smith, and we have no idea how the smith viewed his creation. Again, as I mentioned above, most names, mentioned in contemporaneous sources from different localities , have no defined equivalents in existing examples. What was called Bayaz Stambouli might have been called something different in another place. This is not what we see in Indonesian Kris pamor, where each pattern can be firmly attributed.

The very definition of wootz is a relatively novel field. Every blade with a pattern used to be called Damascus, whether it was real wootz, mechanical one or even superficially etched. Suffice it to say, that even a book by Rawson, published in 1967 did not distinguished them. Anosov is credited with reinventing the technique of wootz manufacture and claimed that he created blades with sophisticated Persian patterns, such as Khorasan and Taban. However, all his existing creations show the simplest Sham pattern. He was brought information about making wootz ingots, but lacked knowledge about forging tricks.

Even now, with extensive study of metallography, sophisticated metallurgical equipment etc, contemporary wootz bladesmiths cannot make even a short blade identical to the old ones. Long blades are even more unapproachable. I know of only one bladesmith from Georgia named Zaqro Nonikashvili, whose work come close to the sophisticated beauty of old masters.

So much of the old knowledge was lost..... Manufacture of wootz blades practically ceased by the mid-19th century and mass production of European monosteels of superior quality made wootz obsolete. The art of wootz manufacture simply went the way of Dodo.

Kubur · 1st March 2019, 10:33 PM

Hi
Kurdish dagger northern Iran.
The blade is Persian and old 19th c. but the hilt looks early 20th c.

William Fox · 1st March 2019, 11:29 PM

I am so impressed by the knowledge of the people who contribute to this forum. Thank you so much for your advice.

The handle looks used, (pretty old), but I agree not as old as the blade. I attach some more pictures of the handle/grip, as well as the scabbard.

Please note the wire wrap at the tip of the scabbard, and also little strips of the same wire running through the scabbard joining seam. There are the remains of velvet at the throat of the scabbard, but it is well worn.

Is the consensus that this is a Kurdish style khanjar from Northern Iraq? I was in Irbil a few years ago, but didn't buy this dagger there.

ariel · 1st March 2019, 11:46 PM

Kurdish or not can be inferred only from the handle. But if it was replaced, the only orientir is lost.

Elgood makes an excellent point that Indian swords ( and, likely, daggers) should be usually viewed as a “marriage” of unrelated blades and handles. In fact, he suggests that perfect matching usually means late 19-early 20th century manufacture in one or another Royal workshops. He stresses that Victoria/Albert collection obtained early consists largely of mismatched samples, whereas Wallace collection assembled after 1870, is virtually 100% perfectly matched:-)

With better pics: blade Persian, scabbard Ottoman, handle replacement. Overall, looks good and sufficiently old to be real.

1st March 2019, 05:25 PM	#1
William Fox Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Great Britain Posts: 24	Wootz Dagger, Persian? Hi gents. Please see some photos of a dagger I purchased recently. It has a green leather scabbard, which is quite worn and so I've given it a bit of light leather oil. The blade appears to be wootz, quite dark in colour. I would love to know what kind of wootz this is. Can anyone guess the age or region? The handle appears to be made of bone, or horn, with a thin copper neck. I would really appreciate any opinions on this dagger. All the best. Attached Images Last edited by William Fox; 1st March 2019 at 08:00 PM.

1st March 2019, 09:42 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade is indeed Persian, it is a classic Khanjar. I cannot see the handle well, and cannot comment on its age and material. One needs to hold it and often inspect it with a magnifier. It may be a cow horn judging from the white spots, but the tang is peaned, and this is something that is not often seen on contemporary replacements. In any case, handles were made from organic materials , got damaged and replaced. I would put any hesitations about the handle on a back burner. The wootz... it is fine. You are asking about its name ( variety). I think we could safely call it Khorasan, but there is a problem: there are more than 30 names for the wootz patterns in different sources, and we have reasonably uniform definition of maybe 5-7 of them. Wootz was made in multiple localities, its pattern depended in large measure on the forging technique of the smith, and we have no idea how the smith viewed his creation. Again, as I mentioned above, most names, mentioned in contemporaneous sources from different localities , have no defined equivalents in existing examples. What was called Bayaz Stambouli might have been called something different in another place. This is not what we see in Indonesian Kris pamor, where each pattern can be firmly attributed. The very definition of wootz is a relatively novel field. Every blade with a pattern used to be called Damascus, whether it was real wootz, mechanical one or even superficially etched. Suffice it to say, that even a book by Rawson, published in 1967 did not distinguished them. Anosov is credited with reinventing the technique of wootz manufacture and claimed that he created blades with sophisticated Persian patterns, such as Khorasan and Taban. However, all his existing creations show the simplest Sham pattern. He was brought information about making wootz ingots, but lacked knowledge about forging tricks. Even now, with extensive study of metallography, sophisticated metallurgical equipment etc, contemporary wootz bladesmiths cannot make even a short blade identical to the old ones. Long blades are even more unapproachable. I know of only one bladesmith from Georgia named Zaqro Nonikashvili, whose work come close to the sophisticated beauty of old masters. So much of the old knowledge was lost..... Manufacture of wootz blades practically ceased by the mid-19th century and mass production of European monosteels of superior quality made wootz obsolete. The art of wootz manufacture simply went the way of Dodo. Last edited by ariel; 1st March 2019 at 09:52 PM.

1st March 2019, 11:29 PM	#5
William Fox Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Great Britain Posts: 24	I am so impressed by the knowledge of the people who contribute to this forum. Thank you so much for your advice. The handle looks used, (pretty old), but I agree not as old as the blade. I attach some more pictures of the handle/grip, as well as the scabbard. Please note the wire wrap at the tip of the scabbard, and also little strips of the same wire running through the scabbard joining seam. There are the remains of velvet at the throat of the scabbard, but it is well worn. Is the consensus that this is a Kurdish style khanjar from Northern Iraq? I was in Irbil a few years ago, but didn't buy this dagger there. Attached Images

1st March 2019, 10:33 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Kurdish dagger northern Iran. The blade is Persian and old 19th c. but the hilt looks early 20th c.

1st March 2019, 11:46 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kurdish or not can be inferred only from the handle. But if it was replaced, the only orientir is lost. Elgood makes an excellent point that Indian swords ( and, likely, daggers) should be usually viewed as a “marriage” of unrelated blades and handles. In fact, he suggests that perfect matching usually means late 19-early 20th century manufacture in one or another Royal workshops. He stresses that Victoria/Albert collection obtained early consists largely of mismatched samples, whereas Wallace collection assembled after 1870, is virtually 100% perfectly matched:-) With better pics: blade Persian, scabbard Ottoman, handle replacement. Overall, looks good and sufficiently old to be real.