Curious finds in Taipei

yuanzhumin · 24th April 2006, 02:56 PM

Hello

I was walking in the streets of Taipei, passing in front of this shop I had known forever without seeing and realizing that, in the middle of hundreds of old things he was selling, the owner had some swords, bows and two armours.

Altogether I pictured 11 swords (4 USA, 3 japanese, 2 chinese, one Dayak and one unknown).

I'm curious to know more about these swords, thanks to your expert help.
I will first begin with 2 of the USA swords and display the other ones later.

What I can see it is that they are not old, 40-50 years may be, are not military but masonic or brotherhood swords. Thanks for telling me more.

yuanzhumin

Mark · 24th April 2006, 03:26 PM

These are ceremonial swords of the Masonic Knights Templar. The symbols of the cross in a crown, the cross patee, and the motton IN HOC SIGNO VINCES ("by this sign you will win") are all symbols of that order. The ivory grip denotes the sword of a Commander (the presiding officer of a Commandry - the working body of the Knights Templar). An ebony handle would indicate a Generalission, the no. 2 man. Usually the name of the owner is etched on the blade, and sometimes the name of his Commandry appears somewhere on the blade or scabbard as well.

[BTW, "in hoc signo vinces" are the words that the Roman Emperor Constantine is said to have seen in the sky, together with a cross, just before a major battle with the last-remaining Tetrarch (one of four "co-emperors"). He had crosses put on the legions' standard staffs, won the battle, and Christianity became the official religion of the Empire.]

yuanzhumin · 25th April 2006, 01:19 AM

Thanks Mark for this additional infos on the 2 first swords.
I have a short free moment, so I take the opportunity to post the two other american swords I saw. These two are also not old, may be made in the sixties at the most.

The first one posted today seems to be made in Taiwan, as it is written on one side of the blade, but for an american owner of jewish faith as there is a david star on the other side, close to the guard. I don't know more.

The second is american also, with a stamp on the blade from Philadelphia and a motto on the other side. Also a brotherhood sword ?

Thanks

Rick · 25th April 2006, 01:55 AM

Okay , the first one is a US Naval dress sword . The dolphin on the scabbard drag is a dead giveaway .

The second one i'll leave for someone else ....

RSWORD · 25th April 2006, 02:21 AM

The second sword is a M1902 Army officer sword. I believe these remained in commission up into the 1950's.

Rick · 25th April 2006, 03:13 AM

The six pointed star you mentioned is often used by various cutlers as a quality mark or talisman ; it can even be seen on some Islamic swords .

RSWORD · 25th April 2006, 03:18 AM

I look forward to the other swords as well.

yuanzhumin · 25th April 2006, 01:44 PM

Thanks Rick for the tip about the six pointed star mark. If I wanted to show off my ignorance on the subject, I wouldn't have done better.

In fact, the subject is far away from the Taiwanese austronesian tribes.

Thanks also to RSWORD for the comments on the second sword. The other ones are coming. As there is only six pictures attachments possible, I'll have to go post after post.

The two next :
-1: an unknown sword that is a copy of medieval swords.
-2: probably a japanese sword in the western style. That's all I know. The Japanese colonized Taiwan from 1895 to 1945. There is a still quite few of these old japanese things that are surfacing in the island from time to time.

Mark · 25th April 2006, 08:31 PM

The repro is of "Tizona," one of the swords of the Spanish hero El Cid.

The second one is a Japanese army kyu-gunto (see http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/military.htm)

Quite a variety of swords this shop has!

yuanzhumin · 26th April 2006, 12:01 AM

Yes, quite a variety, Mark !

I was surprised by this discovery, and I thought that it would be nice and funny to share it with all of you through a kind of "virtual exhibit" on the forum.

This morning (in Taipei), I selected the two other japanese swords, that are like the first one I displayed. They are most probably military, dating from the end of 19 th and the beginning of 20th century.

In the next two days, I will display the two chinese swords (republic time), one dayak mandau (with a beautiful handle!) and then the rest - one complete japanese armour (very impressive), two japanese bows, and two unknown identical short swords).

Thanks to all of you for your comments.

yuanzhumin · 26th April 2006, 12:08 AM

Checking back quickly on the pics I just displayed, I have a doubt : would these be all pictures of the same sword ? In the precipitation of taking the photos in the shop, I may have pictured twice the same sword. If it is the case, sorry.

yuanzhumin · 26th April 2006, 03:08 AM

Hello

I’m grateful to you, Mark, for the precious link you gave about the Japanese military swords. I looked at it, and It stimulated my curiosity.

So, the first showed Japanese sword is an army kiu-gunto. The text say that this sword is of the colonial type - from Taiwan when I look at the drawings – and that the blades were sometimes hand forged. Is this one hand forged ?

The second one on the other post seems to be also a kiu-gunto. It looks like more the navy style to me (am I wrong ?), with a leather covered scabbard and brass fixtures. But the blade appears significantly different from the previous one. How come ? Is it hand forged ?

Is there anything else special to learn on these type of swords ?

Thanks.

yuanzhumin · 26th April 2006, 03:34 AM

Mark, I just checked at the bottom of the page on the Japanese military swords website the link to the fake,repros and similar swords. It seems to me now that I was wrong in my previous conclusions and that the second sword is not Japanese but a « Chinese military parade sabers that are somewhat similar to Japanese parade sabers or to Japanese kyu-gunto and are sometimes confused with them ».
Here is another excerpt from the site : “The Chinese sabers have a different design on the backstrap and a different flower emblem on the side panel of the backstrap, “ It seems to be the case here.
And also : ‘The (chinese) scabbards have two suspension rings, Japanese sabers have only one suspension ring. “ That’s exactly the case of the second sword.
So I guess the second sword is a Chinese parade sword, and that would explain the big difference in the shape of the blades (and also the quality of it). Could anybody confirm ?

Mark · 26th April 2006, 04:15 PM

I was thinking the army kyu-gunto was a Taiwan occupation one, too, but if you look that the mon on the handle, it is not the same kind of flower as that on the Taiwan occupation sword shown on Rich's site, and looks instead identical to the general army crysanthemum design.

Its impossible to tell from photos whether the blade is hand-forged or machine made. The hamon looks pretty regular and sharp-edged to me, so my guess is machine made.

Really all I know about these is what I have learned from Rich's site.

yuanzhumin · 26th April 2006, 11:38 PM

Hello
Here is the dayak knife.
I find the handle quite nice.
Can you give me some comments on it ?
Thanks

Tomik · 27th April 2006, 12:26 PM

There are lots of fakes in chinese and japanese military sword these days, so without really good pictures it is hard to say whether they are real or not. Hey, what about the chinese swords, getting little impatient

BTW Does the shop accept mail orders, who knows those chinese swords might just be what I have been looking for.

yuanzhumin · 27th April 2006, 04:32 PM

Well, here are the last pictures because the best stories are the shortest, and I feel this one is getting a little long for everybody. So here is the end of the virtual tour of one shop in Taipei.

Tomik : I didn't ask the old guy but I don't think he takes mail order. Anyway, if there is one sword you are interested in, you can still private email me, and I will see what I can do on a friendly basis.

So I finally post here after the pictures of a chinese sword from the Republic time, a Japanese armour, two unknown swords and two bows, japanese I presume.

Ciao

24th April 2006, 02:56 PM	#1
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Curious finds in Taipei Hello I was walking in the streets of Taipei, passing in front of this shop I had known forever without seeing and realizing that, in the middle of hundreds of old things he was selling, the owner had some swords, bows and two armours. Altogether I pictured 11 swords (4 USA, 3 japanese, 2 chinese, one Dayak and one unknown). I'm curious to know more about these swords, thanks to your expert help. I will first begin with 2 of the USA swords and display the other ones later. What I can see it is that they are not old, 40-50 years may be, are not military but masonic or brotherhood swords. Thanks for telling me more. yuanzhumin Attached Images

25th April 2006, 01:19 AM	#3
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	2 other american swords, I guess Thanks Mark for this additional infos on the 2 first swords. I have a short free moment, so I take the opportunity to post the two other american swords I saw. These two are also not old, may be made in the sixties at the most. The first one posted today seems to be made in Taiwan, as it is written on one side of the blade, but for an american owner of jewish faith as there is a david star on the other side, close to the guard. I don't know more. The second is american also, with a stamp on the blade from Philadelphia and a motto on the other side. Also a brotherhood sword ? Thanks Attached Images

25th April 2006, 01:44 PM	#8
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Thanks Rick for the tip about the six pointed star mark. If I wanted to show off my ignorance on the subject, I wouldn't have done better. In fact, the subject is far away from the Taiwanese austronesian tribes. Thanks also to RSWORD for the comments on the second sword. The other ones are coming. As there is only six pictures attachments possible, I'll have to go post after post. The two next : -1: an unknown sword that is a copy of medieval swords. -2: probably a japanese sword in the western style. That's all I know. The Japanese colonized Taiwan from 1895 to 1945. There is a still quite few of these old japanese things that are surfacing in the island from time to time. Attached Images

26th April 2006, 12:01 AM	#10
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Yes, quite a variety, Mark ! I was surprised by this discovery, and I thought that it would be nice and funny to share it with all of you through a kind of "virtual exhibit" on the forum. This morning (in Taipei), I selected the two other japanese swords, that are like the first one I displayed. They are most probably military, dating from the end of 19 th and the beginning of 20th century. In the next two days, I will display the two chinese swords (republic time), one dayak mandau (with a beautiful handle!) and then the rest - one complete japanese armour (very impressive), two japanese bows, and two unknown identical short swords). Thanks to all of you for your comments. Attached Images

26th April 2006, 11:38 PM	#15
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Hello Here is the dayak knife. I find the handle quite nice. Can you give me some comments on it ? Thanks Attached Images

24th April 2006, 03:26 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	These are ceremonial swords of the Masonic Knights Templar. The symbols of the cross in a crown, the cross patee, and the motton IN HOC SIGNO VINCES ("by this sign you will win") are all symbols of that order. The ivory grip denotes the sword of a Commander (the presiding officer of a Commandry - the working body of the Knights Templar). An ebony handle would indicate a Generalission, the no. 2 man. Usually the name of the owner is etched on the blade, and sometimes the name of his Commandry appears somewhere on the blade or scabbard as well. [BTW, "in hoc signo vinces" are the words that the Roman Emperor Constantine is said to have seen in the sky, together with a cross, just before a major battle with the last-remaining Tetrarch (one of four "co-emperors"). He had crosses put on the legions' standard staffs, won the battle, and Christianity became the official religion of the Empire.]

25th April 2006, 01:55 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Okay , the first one is a US Naval dress sword . The dolphin on the scabbard drag is a dead giveaway . The second one i'll leave for someone else ....

25th April 2006, 02:21 AM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	The second sword is a M1902 Army officer sword. I believe these remained in commission up into the 1950's.

25th April 2006, 03:13 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	The six pointed star you mentioned is often used by various cutlers as a quality mark or talisman ; it can even be seen on some Islamic swords .

25th April 2006, 03:18 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I look forward to the other swords as well.

25th April 2006, 08:31 PM	#9
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	The repro is of "Tizona," one of the swords of the Spanish hero El Cid. The second one is a Japanese army kyu-gunto (see http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/military.htm) Quite a variety of swords this shop has!

26th April 2006, 12:08 AM	#11
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Checking back quickly on the pics I just displayed, I have a doubt : would these be all pictures of the same sword ? In the precipitation of taking the photos in the shop, I may have pictured twice the same sword. If it is the case, sorry.

26th April 2006, 03:08 AM	#12
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Hello I’m grateful to you, Mark, for the precious link you gave about the Japanese military swords. I looked at it, and It stimulated my curiosity. So, the first showed Japanese sword is an army kiu-gunto. The text say that this sword is of the colonial type - from Taiwan when I look at the drawings – and that the blades were sometimes hand forged. Is this one hand forged ? The second one on the other post seems to be also a kiu-gunto. It looks like more the navy style to me (am I wrong ?), with a leather covered scabbard and brass fixtures. But the blade appears significantly different from the previous one. How come ? Is it hand forged ? Is there anything else special to learn on these type of swords ? Thanks.

26th April 2006, 03:34 AM	#13
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Mark, I just checked at the bottom of the page on the Japanese military swords website the link to the fake,repros and similar swords. It seems to me now that I was wrong in my previous conclusions and that the second sword is not Japanese but a « Chinese military parade sabers that are somewhat similar to Japanese parade sabers or to Japanese kyu-gunto and are sometimes confused with them ». Here is another excerpt from the site : “The Chinese sabers have a different design on the backstrap and a different flower emblem on the side panel of the backstrap, “ It seems to be the case here. And also : ‘The (chinese) scabbards have two suspension rings, Japanese sabers have only one suspension ring. “ That’s exactly the case of the second sword. So I guess the second sword is a Chinese parade sword, and that would explain the big difference in the shape of the blades (and also the quality of it). Could anybody confirm ?

26th April 2006, 04:15 PM	#14
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I was thinking the army kyu-gunto was a Taiwan occupation one, too, but if you look that the mon on the handle, it is not the same kind of flower as that on the Taiwan occupation sword shown on Rich's site, and looks instead identical to the general army crysanthemum design. Its impossible to tell from photos whether the blade is hand-forged or machine made. The hamon looks pretty regular and sharp-edged to me, so my guess is machine made. Really all I know about these is what I have learned from Rich's site.

27th April 2006, 12:26 PM	#16
Tomik Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 7	There are lots of fakes in chinese and japanese military sword these days, so without really good pictures it is hard to say whether they are real or not. Hey, what about the chinese swords, getting little impatient BTW Does the shop accept mail orders, who knows those chinese swords might just be what I have been looking for.

27th April 2006, 04:32 PM	#17
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Well, here are the last pictures because the best stories are the shortest, and I feel this one is getting a little long for everybody. So here is the end of the virtual tour of one shop in Taipei. Tomik : I didn't ask the old guy but I don't think he takes mail order. Anyway, if there is one sword you are interested in, you can still private email me, and I will see what I can do on a friendly basis. So I finally post here after the pictures of a chinese sword from the Republic time, a Japanese armour, two unknown swords and two bows, japanese I presume. Ciao Attached Images