Mid 18 th century Spanish military musket for ID.

[Cerjak]

Hello,
I have just bought this one few days ago and I still don’t have receive it.I would like to know which model it could be and of course I would like to have more information about this mark on the flintlock ‘ GARATE or CARATE I did no find it in "Der Neue Stockel" yet .
Any comment on it will be welcome

Best
CERJAK

[Fernando K]

Cerjak

GARATE surname is during 17,18 and 19th centuries.

Efforts should be francisco de Garate, spark (lock-maker) 1722-1740 or Juan Antonio de Garate, spark (lock-maker) 1740 or Juan Martin de Garate, spark (lock-maker) 1745.

Also Juan Bautista de Garate, canonist (barrel-maker) 1806, but the model rifle (musket) is not the same.

-Source Ramiro Larrañaga, "Synthesis of the Basque historic armory", page 214

Affectionately. Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Cerjak

Below the bread, says REI punch? (REY)

Fernando K

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Cerjak

Below the pan, says REI punch? (REY)

Fernando K

Which would mean property of the King.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Cerjak

Below the bread, says REI punch? (REY)

Fernando K

Dear Fernando,

Thank you very much for your inputs about Garate’s punch .
I have took some additional pictures this morning ( I have just received the parcel)
There is a similar Mark behind the barrel ( REX or REY or REI)
So it seems to be a Spanish service rifle with Spanish official punches But which model is it ?
I forgot to mentioned:
Do you have pictures for a similar model ?
Overall 160 cm and caliber around 18 mm
Best
Cerjak

[Fernando K]

Cerjak

For me, this is a copy of the French model of 1717 or 1728, for infantry. The rings for the gun holder (musquet) are on the left side, and rear ring was to be placed in the hole is the left side. Regarding the front ring I can not comment because I do not see from the left side of the weapon, which could be located.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Cerjak

For me, this is a copy of the French model of 1717 or 1728, for infantry. The rings for the gun holder (musquet) are on the left side, and rear ring was to be placed in the hole is the left side. Regarding the front ring I can not comment because I do not see from the left side of the weapon, which could be located.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Yes Fernando well seen ,this rifle is inspired from the French model 1728 and also it is possible to mount the French bayonet mod 1728 on it .

Best

Cerjak

[Shakethetrees]

I believe it is 1750's. Form what I have found most Spanish military muskets in the 18th century carried Miquelet locks and had rings as the heads of their lock screws. This one has the ring.

The side plate is very French, as are the trigger guard and butt plate finial. Both are characteristics of late 17 th pre pattern military muskets from France.

The poor photos below are of a hybrid musket that was cobbled together from Spanish 1754 military muskets and some early Maastricht import musket parts by Godfroi Corbeau (sp) of that city.

From what I've read after this French style musket was issued, the troops using it were not too happy with it as they were more familiar with the Miquelet action.

I believe after this model was phased out Spain went back to the earlier, more familiar system.

[rickystl]

Hi Cerjak.
What an interesting musket. I believe I can add some information to this Thread if you let me know the length of the barrel ? The French barrels of this period were about 46.75 inches (118.745cm) and the Spanish barrels were about 43 inches (109.22cm).
Rick.

[rickystl]

While waiting for Cerjak's reply on the barrel length, I thought I would add some additional observations.

LOCK: This is a variation of the 1752, 55, or 57 Spanish Infantry musket lock. The Spanish used the Miquelet style lock till about 1750, changing to the French style lock. Then changing back to the Miquelet style lock about 1790, believing the Miquelet style lock being stronger and more reliable.
STOCK: The stock appears to be the French 1717 or 1728/46 pattern. Although the trigger and guard appear to be from a 1717 pattern. The butt plate...I'm not sure (?). The side plate is French from this pattern, and missing it's side mounted sling swivel.
FRONT BARREL BAND: While similar to the French band, this appears to be from a Spanish 1752 or 1755 Model, with the longer tail. The bands on the Spanish guns were changed to brass in 1757.
REAR AND MIDDLE BARREL BANDS: I believe these are both French, as the Spanish rear barrel band is different.

It will be interesting to know the barrel length of this gun. Also, if the gun was purchased in from the States (USA) ?
Rick.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by rickystl

While waiting for Cerjak's reply on the barrel length, I thought I would add some additional observations.

LOCK: This is a variation of the 1752, 55, or 57 Spanish Infantry musket lock. The Spanish used the Miquelet style lock till about 1750, changing to the French style lock. Then changing back to the Miquelet style lock about 1790, believing the Miquelet style lock being stronger and more reliable.
STOCK: The stock appears to be the French 1717 or 1728/46 pattern. Although the trigger and guard appear to be from a 1717 pattern. The butt plate...I'm not sure (?). The side plate is French from this pattern, and missing it's side mounted sling swivel.
FRONT BARREL BAND: While similar to the French band, this appears to be from a Spanish 1752 or 1755 Model, with the longer tail. The bands on the Spanish guns were changed to brass in 1757.
REAR AND MIDDLE BARREL BANDS: I believe these are both French, as the Spanish rear barrel band is different.

It will be interesting to know the barrel length of this gun. Also, if the gun was purchased in from the States (USA) ?
Rick.

Hi rick
Thank you for your imput.
The barrel lenght is 120 cm so more than the french mod1717.
This gun had been bought from France from a old collector who had bought it 1960.
I hope it will help for the identification

Best

Cerjak

[rickystl]

Hi Cerjak.
So, the barrel length is close to the French model, but with Spanish markings. Very interesting. Hmmmm.
So it appears you have a French 1717-1728 Model musket, with a Spanish 1752-1757 style lock, but with Spanish markings on the barrel. And it appears to have been made this way from a compilation of surplus parts, with Spanish surcharge markings on the barrel. Very neat and very interesting!!
The French barrels during this period were typically .69 or .72 caliber, where the Spanish barrels were .71 caliber. So both very close in bore size.
Rick.

[rickystl]

I hope the Moderator will allow the posting of a replica in this case, just to show a comparison.
Here is an exact replica of a Spanish 1757 infantry musket. The mounts were changed to brass in 1757. The 1752 and 1755 had the same mounts, but iron. The 1752 was supplied with a wood ramrod, while an iron ramrod was adopted in 1755. Otherwise, the guns looked the same.
Notice the Spanish musket looks very different. Including the screws on the butt plate resting above the plate instead of flush in typical Spanish fashion.
Rick.

[rickystl]

And the side plate...........

[fernando]

Perhaps exceptions to both lock systems timeline are to be considered.
The musquet model aproved in 1717, which initiated the 'munition regulation', had a French style lock, 'imposed' by His Majesty. This lock, with continuous mechanic modifitations, kept in munitions models until 1789 when, as already noted, chnged to Miquelete by order of Carlos IV.
On the other hand the use of both lock styles had different paths, in either Royal Factories (Placencia) and private ones (the so called merchantia).
We can see in works by Juan Luis Calvó Pacual, the the picture of a Miquelete lock made around 1770, in the Catalonian variant, for the 'escopeta con bayoneta'.
Concerning preferences of either lock style, differences in perspective are recorded; rank men preferred the Miquelete style due to its easyness in cleaning and caring, whereas hose that were supposed to have better knowledge favoured the Miquelete because of its greater resistance and the advantage of visual access to its safe and shooting positions.
Other sources with a third perspective (stock makers?) claimed that the Miquelete was less controversial, as the carving for their insertion was not so deep and wood weakening.
Concerning the word REI on the barrel of the musket in discussion, this reassures it was Spanish King property.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by rickystl

I hope the Moderator will allow the posting of a replica in this case, just to show a comparison...

Abslutely no problem Rick, even more with the purpose to support discussions. We just don't have as a goal in this sub-forum the opening of threads dedicated to replicas ... which is a different thing.

[rickystl]

Hi Fernando.
Thanks for your allowence in this case. And I agree, there are other Forums for replicas.
Actually, I've read that the Spanish (Under Phillip V who was a French decendant) updated the Model 1700 musket as early as 1718 with a French style lock similar to the French 1717 lock.
But it's interesting that in the mid 1700's that the miquelet lock was still a preference for civilian guns, and special order pistols for officers. And probably for any/all the reasons you mention above.

Cerjak's musket is the first French gun, with a Spanish lock and surchared barrel I've seen. Makes it super interesting from a historical gun perspective. Thanks again.
Rick.

[Cerjak]

Thank you very much to everybody Rick,Fernando K ,Fernando, I have now all the information needed and even more than expected about this riffle.
here some pictures for one with French style lock that I ‘ve already posted 3 years ago.
Overall 152 cm Barrel 110 cm
Cerjak

[Fernando K]

Hello

Two comments on what has sustained Ricky. The Spanish muskets, during the 18th century, followed the fashion of the lock to the French, in this case with some Spanish characteristics, the large ring on the screw that adjusts the jaws and striatum rake (Frizen) and recently in 1790 appears the lock of miquelete, although civilian weapons has been used long before. Remarkable is the absence of bridle into the bowl (pan)
Also, service weapon is owned by the Spanish crown, owned by the punch, REI. You can not be a French weapon.

It has not said anything about the method of carrying, the rings of gun carrier

Affectionately. Fernando K

Sorry for the translator

[rickystl]

here some pictures for one with French style lock that I ‘ve already posted 3 years ago.
Overall 152 cm Barrel 110 cm
Cerjak

Hi Cerjak.
WOW! Another super interesting musket. Yes, appears to be a 1757 Spanish musket - but with a French lock. Sort of the reverse of the first one posted. LOL Looks like the muzzle of the barrel had been shortened back in the period. Possibly due to muzzle damage or for civilian use. The lock plates on both the French and Spanish guns were almost interchangeable.
Two very neat muskets Cerjak. Thanks so much for posting.
Rick.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Two comments on what has sustained Ricky. The Spanish muskets, during the 18th century, followed the fashion of the lock to the French, in this case with some Spanish characteristics, the large ring on the screw that adjusts the jaws and striatum rake (Frizen) and recently in 1790 appears the lock of miquelete, although civilian weapons has been used long before. Remarkable is the absence of bridle into the bowl (pan)
Also, service weapon is owned by the Spanish crown, owned by the punch, REI. You can not be a French weapon.

It has not said anything about the method of carrying, the rings of gun carrier

Affectionately. Fernando K

Sorry for the translator

Hi Fernando.
Supposedly, the internal and external bribles were added to the French lock in 1722. The 1752 Spanish musket was the compilation of the best features of both the French and Spanish guns. And as you note the "ring" on the top screw is a carry over of the earlier miquelet locks.
An interesting side note: From my own personal experience, I can say that the round ring on the top screw does in fact make aligning and adjusting the flint in the jaws easier and faster. Which is the likely reason the Spanish retained this feature.
Rick.

[Fernando K]

Hello, Cerjak
Regarding the post musket 18 (can not find the original post) should be considered if not a gun or a fortress wall. The 1728 model had this variant, but a larger caliber bullets 16 to the pound instead of 18 to the pound. The length of the shank to the muzzle and the lack of the bayonet lug would seem to indicate, though brass trimmings are now.
Affectionately. Fernando K