Identify this dagger pls

erlikhan · 7th May 2005, 11:51 PM

Hi. Can you pls examine the attachment and identify the dagger shown? It is in Turkey and somebody told it as Ottoman but I dont think so. A European hunting knife perhaps ?
regards

tom hyle · 8th May 2005, 01:05 AM

That would sure be my guess; European 19th or early 20th. Kind of thing they used to call a bowie or dirk in N America. I wonder what the handle is made of? The iron guard with other brass dress is a bit unusual, but it is seen, where the guard is iron, and the other dress is with a softer metal. Possibly Slavic? Would Slavs use a flat belt clip like that? Condition is spectaculon, and it could be newer, but in the modern world, these are the kind of thing that often spend decades inside drawers, linen chests, or gun cabinets, and one sees 19 European daggers in really good shape fairly frequently. The overlapped rather than rabbetted union of ferules with handle seems more Eastern European to me, but I'm not 100% about that. To some it may seem a lesser craftsmanship, but one does see it on some old stuff, and it's actually the stronger way, with no sharp rabetted shoulder for cracks to start in, and with conical sockets and ferules, they can be tightened by further insertion if they become loose; rambling.....It's great for spears and chisels.

TVV · 8th May 2005, 03:28 AM

I cannot add much to the discussion, except that the dagger is deffinitely not a Bulgarian one, and I doubt it can be a military dagger of any Balkan country. However, it could be Russian, but more of a hunting dagger than a military dirk.

wolviex · 8th May 2005, 10:01 AM

Helo!

It's hard to say it's Slavic or non-slavic, while in 19th and 20th century there was no such category in a world of weapons, and other way, I think that clip won't help us to tell closer if it is Russian, Polish, Czech or other.

For sure I can tell that S-shaped quillons and such blades were made indeed in Europe in 19th and 20th century, mostly for hunting knives or, as Tom called it, bowie knives. Most of them, often produced in Germany, were with deer hoof as a handle. This one looks a little more decorated so I have a problem with qualify this dagger as a pure hunting knife. Judging from the ornament (empire ?) it can be 1st half or even 1st quater of the 19th century. But not necessary French. It was all over European fashion.

Regards!

Radu Transylvanicus · 8th May 2005, 10:25 AM

I couldnt agree more with Tom and Wolviex, I would doubt that of being Ottoman; it is European facture , looks much like the popular neo-classic revival hunting knives popular betwwen Victorian Era (short of terminology, second half of 19th century) to WW period... This is the more rare model, the "boar spear blade" (personal terminology here) versus the longer bladed "hanger", more like a short sword. It was likely made in the geographical area comprised between Germany and Russia, where they were quiet popular to my knowledge... Looking at the decorations and sheath it could be a limited issue to a forestry/ranger service or senior officers in a militia as it bears symbols but nothing seriously representative from a national or organisational heraldic point of view.
I would pompously declare it: Neo-Classical European hunting dirk, second half of 19th century.
Erlikhan: what is the grip made of ?! Considering your given profile, you would be able to say if a resin, bone or plastics.

wolviex · 8th May 2005, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

I would pompously declare it: Neo-Classical European hunting dirk, second half of 19th century.

Radu I have edited my post and I declare 1st half of the 19th century. This "heart-leaf-shaped ornament is called palmetta. I doubt it was made later when fashion has passed away

Regards

Radu Transylvanicus · 8th May 2005, 10:35 AM

Could very much be, Wolviex, I would rather consider it earliear than second half 19th then later than that...
Also here in USA, as Tom pertinently remarks, relatively similar knives were made and very many of them under direct or indirect German immigrants craftsmanship, a not to be taken lightly quantity or influence .

erlikhan · 8th May 2005, 01:25 PM

Thanks for the participations. Well, I havent seen this knife in real. Is offered in a Turkish auction site, and all I see are these pictures. I asked the seller about the material of the hilt, and his reply is" not ivory. Something like hard plastic". The answer brings another question, if such kinds of plastics were developed and used in weaponry not in 19th c. for sure, but at least, 1st quarter of 20th century or not. So?
regards

tom hyle · 8th May 2005, 04:03 PM

Well, the description and appearance could easily fit amber or celluloid, no?

Radu Transylvanicus · 8th May 2005, 07:11 PM

Early resinuos plastics or "archaic Plastics" were used even before that however not too long before 20th century and the technology was exlusivelly European at the time I think ...

7th May 2005, 11:51 PM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Identify this dagger pls Hi. Can you pls examine the attachment and identify the dagger shown? It is in Turkey and somebody told it as Ottoman but I dont think so. A European hunting knife perhaps ? regards Attached Images

8th May 2005, 10:01 AM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Helo! It's hard to say it's Slavic or non-slavic, while in 19th and 20th century there was no such category in a world of weapons, and other way, I think that clip won't help us to tell closer if it is Russian, Polish, Czech or other. For sure I can tell that S-shaped quillons and such blades were made indeed in Europe in 19th and 20th century, mostly for hunting knives or, as Tom called it, bowie knives. Most of them, often produced in Germany, were with deer hoof as a handle. This one looks a little more decorated so I have a problem with qualify this dagger as a pure hunting knife. Judging from the ornament (empire ?) it can be 1st half or even 1st quater of the 19th century. But not necessary French. It was all over European fashion. Regards! Last edited by wolviex; 8th May 2005 at 10:26 AM.

8th May 2005, 10:25 AM	#5
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	I couldnt agree more with Tom and Wolviex, I would doubt that of being Ottoman; it is European facture , looks much like the popular neo-classic revival hunting knives popular betwwen Victorian Era (short of terminology, second half of 19th century) to WW period... This is the more rare model, the "boar spear blade" (personal terminology here) versus the longer bladed "hanger", more like a short sword. It was likely made in the geographical area comprised between Germany and Russia, where they were quiet popular to my knowledge... Looking at the decorations and sheath it could be a limited issue to a forestry/ranger service or senior officers in a militia as it bears symbols but nothing seriously representative from a national or organisational heraldic point of view. I would pompously declare it: Neo-Classical European hunting dirk, second half of 19th century. Erlikhan: what is the grip made of ?! Considering your given profile, you would be able to say if a resin, bone or plastics. Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 8th May 2005 at 10:49 AM.

8th May 2005, 10:35 AM	#7
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Could very much be, Wolviex, I would rather consider it earliear than second half 19th then later than that... Also here in USA, as Tom pertinently remarks, relatively similar knives were made and very many of them under direct or indirect German immigrants craftsmanship, a not to be taken lightly quantity or influence . Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 8th May 2005 at 10:49 AM.

8th May 2005, 01:05 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	That would sure be my guess; European 19th or early 20th. Kind of thing they used to call a bowie or dirk in N America. I wonder what the handle is made of? The iron guard with other brass dress is a bit unusual, but it is seen, where the guard is iron, and the other dress is with a softer metal. Possibly Slavic? Would Slavs use a flat belt clip like that? Condition is spectaculon, and it could be newer, but in the modern world, these are the kind of thing that often spend decades inside drawers, linen chests, or gun cabinets, and one sees 19 European daggers in really good shape fairly frequently. The overlapped rather than rabbetted union of ferules with handle seems more Eastern European to me, but I'm not 100% about that. To some it may seem a lesser craftsmanship, but one does see it on some old stuff, and it's actually the stronger way, with no sharp rabetted shoulder for cracks to start in, and with conical sockets and ferules, they can be tightened by further insertion if they become loose; rambling.....It's great for spears and chisels.

8th May 2005, 03:28 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	I cannot add much to the discussion, except that the dagger is deffinitely not a Bulgarian one, and I doubt it can be a military dagger of any Balkan country. However, it could be Russian, but more of a hunting dagger than a military dirk.

8th May 2005, 01:25 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thanks for the participations. Well, I havent seen this knife in real. Is offered in a Turkish auction site, and all I see are these pictures. I asked the seller about the material of the hilt, and his reply is" not ivory. Something like hard plastic". The answer brings another question, if such kinds of plastics were developed and used in weaponry not in 19th c. for sure, but at least, 1st quarter of 20th century or not. So? regards

8th May 2005, 04:03 PM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Well, the description and appearance could easily fit amber or celluloid, no?

8th May 2005, 07:11 PM	#10
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Early resinuos plastics or "archaic Plastics" were used even before that however not too long before 20th century and the technology was exlusivelly European at the time I think ...