Luzon Kris, just like Robert's

[drac2k]

I just acquired this Philippine sword and I was searching the Forum to see if there were any similar examples, and to my surprise, I came upon a Feb.2005 Post by Robert that showed the almost exact weapon. I had to look at it very closely to make sure that wasn't the same piece as it is not uncommon to see some of our pieces traded and sold into the collections of Forum members. His piece was 28" long and mine was approx. 25.5" in length.
This is exciting to me as either the pieces were made by the same smith and/or this style of sword could have been a standard pattern issued to some local Philippine militia. I will now be looking for my third example.

[David]

Nice sword. I'm still not too keen on calling them kris though.

[drac2k]

Thanks. I agree; I chose the non-technically correct label as it was more easily recognizable to a greater amount of people and I didn't know what else to name it.

[Sajen]

Very nice sword, congrats! Do you have the link to Roberts example?

Regards,
Detlef

[drac2k]

Thanks. If you do a search in the Forum under Luzon Sword, on the second pg., you will see Robert's post "Old Luzon Kris," post #4 will be my twin brother's sword. This post was dated Aug. 2012.

[David]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Luzon+Kris

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by drac2k

Thanks. If you do a search in the Forum under Luzon Sword, on the second pg., you will see Robert's post "Old Luzon Kris," post #4 will be my twin brother's sword. This post was dated Aug. 2012.

Sorry, I've searched already but can't find it!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=Luzon+Kris

Sorry, I have overseen that you have posted the link!

Yes, the piece is very similar!

[drac2k]

Thanks, guys for doing what I should have done!
Any Idea what the "6," "9," or squiggly mark is or means?

[kai]

This is exciting to me as either the pieces were made by the same smith and/or this style of sword could have been a standard pattern issued to some local Philippine militia.

While it's not possible to prove a negative, I really don't think these 2 options are the only possible scenarios and I'd posit these 2 are not even the most likely ones: In many cultures, styles and patterns are fairly conserved over time and space (aka tradition). Thus, one tends to see patterns which are closely adhered to over generations and sometimes neighbouring areas. This doesn't have to be a sign of a single craftsman nor a "single school" (nor any militia pattern).

Apologies for the rant - I keep hearing such assumptions but hardly ever see any evidence like specific tool marks, brush strokes (paintings) or other stylistic features of the actual work by artisans.

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

Nice turn of the century example. It looks like it's from lower Luzon, perhaps Pampangan or Tagalog.

[drac2k]

Kai, I understand and endorse your belief that too many people take free reign in ascribing certain unrelated attributes in regards to weapons; my personal peeve is that numerous Philippine knives and swords, especially with guards are listed as "Civil War Confederate."
This instance of 2 swords being almost symmetrical, appeared to me to be an exception. If we saw a US M-1832 Artillery Sword, we would recognize the pattern and acknowledge it as such, without controversy; why can we not assume that some armory in the Philippines was capable of such an endeavor when presented with such examples? We can at least ask the question.
I am warning you that I am actively seeking a third example, lol. Honestly, no disrespect, as I admire the knowledge that you have demonstrated in your posts.
Thanks for the information Battara.

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

While it's not possible to prove a negative, I really don't think these 2 options are the only possible scenarios and I'd posit these 2 are not even the most likely ones: In many cultures, styles and patterns are fairly conserved over time and space (aka tradition). Thus, one tends to see patterns which are closely adhered to over generations and sometimes neighbouring areas. This doesn't have to be a sign of a single craftsman nor a "single school" (nor any militia pattern).

Apologies for the rant - I keep hearing such assumptions but hardly ever see any evidence like specific tool marks, brush strokes (paintings) or other stylistic features of the actual work by artisans.

Regards,
Kai

While i do understand your concern here Kai, i do have to say that if you go searching for other examples of these types of Luzon swords you will be pretty hard pressed to find an example that is this close a match to the two swords being presented. While i have seen other examples with a similar scrolled cross piece, these two are identical. It is also the same half wavy/half straight blade form. And while this is not an unknown hilt style from the area, the similarity here only reinforces the notion. No smoking gun here, of course, but these two swords are so similar that i would have no problem believing they came from the same source. I believe that to form a stronger opinion we would need to see a series of very detailed and well executed photographs of both swords.

[drac2k]

If Robert is willing, I certainly am.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by drac2k

If Robert is willing, I certainly am.

Robert has many private issues in the moment and his last visit here is long ago but I've found another thread where he has shown his sword, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...41&postcount=1
Given measurements: 27 3/16" overall, 21 1/2" blade.
Regards,
Detlef

[drac2k]

As per request. The handle measures 4 & 1/8" inches long and the guard 3.5" across.

[Sajen]

I would agree, it's the same workshop and the marking on the ricasso stay maybe for the blade length?

[drac2k]

The overall length of mine is approx. 25.5".

[Gavin Nugent]

These are interesting weapons. I have a nice silver dressed one here somewhere... will see if I can find it to post.

This exceptional example passed recently. Certainly the property of a man of standing.

[carlos]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

These are interesting weapons. I have a nice silver dressed one here somewhere... will see if I can find it to post.

This exceptional example passed recently. Certainly the property of a man of standing.

Great piece!!!! Congratulations!!!

[David]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

These are interesting weapons. I have a nice silver dressed one here somewhere... will see if I can find it to post.

This exceptional example passed recently. Certainly the property of a man of standing.

Not sure i would consider this in the same category Gavin. Looks more like a dagger than a sword, with a much thinner profile. What was is the length of the one?

[Gavin Nugent]

16 inches if I recall?

[Spunjer]

Hello David,
actually it's ok to call it a kris. during the Philippine Revolution, one of the main theme was going back to the pre-Hispanic days. with that in mind, the Northern Filipinos really looked up to their southern brethrens since the Moros were never subjugated by the Spaniards. that includes copying a facsimile of their weapons, hence the kris style blades.
of note as well, is the spanish term for gunong: kris de punyal

Gavin: i got beaten up on that particular piece, and some others, lol.
worst one was the kris that went for *****!

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

Hello David,
actually it's ok to call it a kris. during the Philippine Revolution, one of the main theme was going back to the pre-Hispanic days. with that in mind, the Northern Filipinos really looked up to their southern brethrens since the Moros were never subjugated by the Spaniards. that includes copying a facsimile of their weapons, hence the kris style blades.
of note as well, is the spanish term for gunong: kris de punyal

That's OK Ron. LOL! I'll still choose not to call these Luzon swords kris. Do we have any records that show that is what the people of Luzon called them. And i mean then, not how they are marketed today. And as you point out, kris de punyal is the Spanish term for gunong. I'll continue to use gunong.
And Gavin, yeah, i'd call that example you posted a dagger rather than a sword. A very nice one at that!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

Hello David,
actually it's ok to call it a kris. during the Philippine Revolution, one of the main theme was going back to the pre-Hispanic days. with that in mind, the Northern Filipinos really looked up to their southern brethrens since the Moros were never subjugated by the Spaniards. that includes copying a facsimile of their weapons, hence the kris style blades.
of note as well, is the spanish term for gunong: kris de punyal

Gavin: i got beaten up on that particular piece, and some others, lol.
worst one was the kris that went for ****!

Sorry mate, on both

[SanibelSwassa]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

Hello David,
actually it's ok to call it a kris. during the Philippine Revolution, one of the main theme was going back to the pre-Hispanic days. with that in mind, the Northern Filipinos really looked up to their southern brethrens since the Moros were never subjugated by the Spaniards. that includes copying a facsimile of their weapons, hence the kris style blades.
of note as well, is the spanish term for gunong: kris de punyal

Gavin: i got beaten up on that particular piece, and some others, lol.
worst one was the kris that went for ****!

Ron,

Your post is so on point… Gavin, you and I were literally killing each other… Gavin got that Kris… lol… but I got to see it in person yesterday and the hilt is solid cast metal… non-tarnished heavy… definitely not brass… so it could very well be worth the price… I obviously thought so😢😢😢

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

Ron,

Your post is so on point… Gavin, you and I were literally killing each other… Gavin got that Kris… lol… but I got to see it in person yesterday and the hilt is solid cast metal… non-tarnished heavy… definitely not brass… so it could very well be worth the price… I obviously thought so😢😢😢

Sorry mate... and yes it seems we were, but there was a BIG buyer in Texas hammering down on these pieces too....I stood aside for you both on some pieces as there was only one of real personal interest for me in there...

I'm pretty easy to get along with, if you've seen it, I've likely seen it, I'll often stand aside for others, as some members here know....and I'll say if it is something I have to have... a little give and take balance...

I'm grateful it was in your backyard and you got there first hand on the day.

Gav

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by David

That's OK Ron. LOL! I'll still choose not to call these Luzon swords kris. Do we have any records that show that is what the people of Luzon called them. And i mean then, not how they are marketed today. And as you point out, kris de punyal is the Spanish term for gunong. I'll continue to use gunong.
And Gavin, yeah, i'd call that example you posted a dagger rather than a sword. A very nice one at that!

if i come across one, i'll post it. nowadays, been busy with a lot of other things.


SanibelSwaasa, the auction was so obscure, i thought i had a monopoly on it, lol. except for the bolo with horn scabbard and gold kris (congrats on you two!), i'm happy with what got

[Gavin Nugent]

the other I mentioned with silver collars...